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Blind faith

Totenkindly

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...Now, and perhaps this is the predominant issue I have with the Bible, how does one reconcile the inherent accuracy in such a recollection? As we lack independent sources to confirm credibility, we have to rely on Mark's accounting of what happened.

Well, what if Mark's wrong? Or, what if he engaged in hyperbole? What if he mistakenly ommited aspects of what happened? After all, he was like you and me - prone to human error and oversight.

This is handled differently by different factions within the faith, influenced by literalism and personal approach. Some factions construct elaborate proofs as to why it makes the most sense to accept the text as-is, while others will credit flexibility to the text in the face of what it perceives as legitimate ambiguity.

Obviously the approach taken results in what moral codes are perceived in the text and how they are applied socially and personally. The ramifications are great.
 

Night

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This is handled differently by different factions within the faith, influenced by literalism and personal approach. Some factions construct elaborate proofs as to why it makes the most sense to accept the text as-is, while others will credit flexibility to the text in the face of what it perceives as legitimate ambiguity.

Obviously the approach taken results in what moral codes are perceived in the text and how they are applied socially and personally. The ramifications are great.

Precisely.

How do we know which factions appropriately interpret scripture and which are simply using it as a vehicle to further their individual ambitions - often as they apply to influencing popular social themes - like who we can marry, what food we can eat, what we must give up in recognition of our faith, etc.

And, to that end, how can we be certain the Bible is to interpreted at all? What if it is meant to be a literal representation of how we must behave, should we ever hope to gain heavenly access?

We don't have a script.
 

Night

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Right.

And, as many of its central concerns appear to deal with how man should behave during life, I feel as though I must conclude that most (perhaps all?) religious ideology is man-made, offered to influence existence in the here and now, in hopes of maximizing authority at the expense of the vulnerable and faithful.
 

Poki

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I agree that this is likely the case. Many positive aspects of human behavior (likewise, if we're being fair, many aspects of negative - even malicious conduct) can be siphoned and applied to contemporary context.

Yet, we don't necessarily need religion to tell us what we ought to do and what we ought not to do. Civilization can tell us that. So can culture. And why select a monotheistic religion as the centerpiece for our social mores? Judaism has some wonderful tenets; so does Buddhism.

Each relies on their own version of historical account. It just so happens that our birthright has displayed Christianity, front and center.

So, you see my predicament.

Yes, but if a person lacks faith in Human kind, they also lack faith in society as a whole and dont believe they can turn to it for guidance, but they need to turn to something to believe. This inturn is what leads to them forcefully push these things on others because their lack of faith in society which is. They dont believe that civilization can tell us what we ought to do because of the lost faith in it.

Do you know how many catch 22 things this world faces. How many vicious loops we are in that are all co-dependent on each other. This is where "fake it till you make it" needs to be applied and where group counceling and the strength of loved ones really shines. This is a huge benefit I see from the church. A support group, but that support group pushes people to need support. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :D
 

Night

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Yes, but if a person lacks faith in Human kind, they also lack faith in society as a whole and dont believe they can turn to it for guidance, but they need to turn to something to believe. This inturn is what leads to them forcefully push these things on others because their lack of faith in society which is. They dont believe that civilization can tell us what we ought to do because of the lost faith in it.

Sorry - I don't follow. When you mean a person "lacks faith in human kind", are you referring to religious atheists? That is to say, one who does not agree with the mentality that a supernatural entity cares for us, and will judge our fate in the afterlife according to our decisions made while alive?

Do you know how many catch 22 things this world faces. How many vicious loops we are in that are all co-dependent on each other. This is where "fake it till you make it" needs to be applied and where group counceling and the strength of loved ones really shines. This is a huge benefit I see from the church. A support group, but that support group pushes people to need support. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :D

Life is hard. Like you said, there are a lot of chicken-egg scenarios as it applies to human conduct.

Yet, before the 'popular three' religions, humans managed to survived for something like 75,000 years. How much do the main monotheistic religions dictate our ultimate success as a species?

I agree that people must cooperate for the greater good of our future. How that's individually relayed is probably relative to culture. I'm just not sure where religion fits in.
 

Totenkindly

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Yet, before the 'popular three' religions, humans managed to survived for almost 75,000 years. How much do the main monotheistic religions dictate our ultimate success as a species?

Here is a weird thing: I've found that people tend to be good to others regardless of their faith... if they want to be good to others. Faith just tends to be the particular way the goodness is expressed.

And if people want to be mean, they find some excuse in their faith to justify their actions.

In addition, sometimes doctrines seem to get more in the way of people doing the good things they want to do because they think they're not allowed.

This was shocking to me because I expected a different conclusion.

I guess this ties into "[leap of] faith" in adhering to particular doctrines... because how is one to know that one is believing something just because one wants to believe something to be true? There is a step of faith, but obviously the faith is palatable and desired even if painful and scary.

So a lot of faith seems to be personally driven. We just live out ideologies that already mesh with who we are or who we think we should be but say we are adhering to things outside of us.

I just don't know if that is true or not.
 

Oaky

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That sounds more like a stipulation on how to most productively engage (and yes, I agree with you, it's good to shy away from negative casting when possible), rather than resolving the actual conflict in content.
The conflict cannot be resolved through mere discussion. All we can do is talk about how the discussion is brought up. To resolve the conflict is to change people's beliefs which is not so easily done.

I still find the question intriguing, as Night sums it up again: Is faith in lieu of evidence preferable to withholding judgment and why or why not? You and I both think well... yet you seem to adhere more strongly to your belief despite a gap in evidence, whereas for me I felt I had more integrity to intellectually not assert something is true when that gap exists. What makes the difference? What causes the divergence?
Faith to withhold judgement?
This would probably be how it works.
I believe in God. God told us to do the good and avoid the bad. We do as God tells us because it is his word and so the judgement we make is more preferable.
This is usually preferable to those who believe in God. Why do they follow these rules? Because they supposedly don't want to go to hell.

Using evidence for judgment is a different. To those who believe in God, evidence is fine as long as it doesn't go against their beliefs in which it usually doesn't. But when it does they either just leave it alone or speculate onto why it would be bad. And their are countless reasons as to why something could be bad regardless of the evidence we found of it so they just leave it.

To go in any deeper would be to start to talk about the existence of God.
 

Katsuni

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Here is a weird thing: I've found that people tend to be good to others regardless of their faith... if they want to be good to others. Faith just tends to be the particular way the goodness is expressed.

And if people want to be mean, they find some excuse in their faith to justify their actions.

In addition, sometimes doctrines seem to get more in the way of people doing the good things they want to do because they think they're not allowed.

This was shocking to me because I expected a different conclusion.

Most of this thread, after the first page, got going into more of where I kind of expected this would go, but this observation is rather interesting... and now that I've heard it, probably true for the most part.

I'll have to think on this one a fair bit =3




I'll cover more of whot I meant to talk about later, would love to now but put it off too late, need to go to bed and dont' have time for lengthy posts at the moment sadly. Tomorrow!
 
S

Sniffles

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Not necessarily aimed at you, but why is faith a good thing?

Why is definitive conclusion without sufficient evidence a positive concept?

What makes you think that even constitutes faith to begin with? It's quite known throughout the Christian tradition(minus fundamentalism) that faith is a conviction made with adequate evidence to support it, or is the mere beginning of a wider understanding of the evidence.

Faith basically means trust. So I guess one can ask why is trust so important, or such a positive concept?
 

Mole

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Blind faith was replaced by the Enlightenment in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

Yes, blind faith was replaced by evidence and reason just in time for the founding of Oz.

So naturally I look for a double blind test of MBTI. But there is none. So there is no evidence for MBTI. So MBTI is the perfect example of blind faith.

So I look to its origins. And I find it was fabricated in the USA, the home of many blind faiths. Yes, it is another confidence trick emanating from the good ol' USA. All you need to do is believe.

And to be an unbeliever is quite un-American. Thank God I am not an American.
 
S

Sniffles

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Blind faith was replaced by the Enlightenment in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

Yes, blind faith was replaced by evidence and reason just in time for the founding of Oz.

So naturally I look for a double blind test of MBTI. But there is none. So there is no evidence for MBTI. So MBTI is the perfect example of blind faith.

So I look to its origins. And I find it was fabricated in the USA, the home of many blind faiths. Yes, it is another confidence trick emanating from the good ol' USA. All you need to do is believe.

And to be an unbeliever is quite un-American. Thank God I am not an American.
Is this some ersatz form of masturbation for you? Perhaps you need to try the real deal for once, might help to relax all that tension.
 

Mole

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Ad Hominem Attacks and Group Bullying

Is this some ersatz form of masturbation for you? Perhaps you need to try the real deal for once.

Perhaps you and your gang might cease and desist from making ad hominem attacks on me.

I have been subject to ad hominem attacks by the gang from the moment I arrived.

This is called sustained group bullying.

All the moderators are complicit because they are unwilling to stop group bullying. In fact they tell me to my face it is all my fault.

And all this group bullying in the name of MBTI.

If MBTI were not held in blind faith, there would there be no need to defend it with group bullying.
 

KDude

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"Typology Central" - web's #1 gang rape and bullying site. Just the name alone screams "sinister".
 

Katsuni

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Unfortunately he has a point victor, though he didn't need to put it that way.

MBTI is not blind faith by default, nor does it encourage such. Pretty much anywheres official yeu read about it, it states that it is merely a weak attempt at trying to group people so that it makes some vague sort of sense, and that yes, it's obviously flawed because yeu, equally obviously, can't group the entire planet into 16 boxes and hope for it to be 100% accurate.

For further accuracy, use supporting tests which measure different things; for example enneagram checks whot yeur main motivations for doing things are, whereas MBTI doesn't even consider such.

The same goes for religions in general, they usually ask for a degree of faith, rarely do they ask for truly blind faith without consideration of whot's being said.

The only reason I offered the three I mentioned (there's alot more than just those three though) is that they tend to have a higher degree than normal of actively encouraging people to believe without understanding nor comprehension of why they have such dogma listed.

"HATE GAYS!" Alright... why? Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to ask why. But I'm asking anyway! >=O "Because they're unnatural!" No they're not, even in creatures which have no higher thought process or the ability to 'choose' at all intellectually, they still display traits of homosexuality in many confirmed cases. Obviously this is a naturally occurring thing in the natural world among creatures without the capacity for true choice. "Well... well... well the bible says to hate them!" No it doesn't, leviticus said yeu can't allow people to perform gay SEX but it had nothing in it about people themselves; it was the act not the state of being it had problems with, and the only issues it has with that is yeu can't have children. Which's why millions have died in africa due to AIDS - because they have been told that condoms are evil because they prevent 'life' from being transmitted. Rawr.

Anyways, there are some religions which just rely on assumming that the dogma is correct, and that those higher up than yeu are allowed to make yeur decisions on complex matters for yeu. After all, the pope supposedly has a direct connection to god, despite being voted in by committee, and as such, has the 'right' to interpret whot everything means for yeu, and if yeu disagree, yeu're wrong.

Blind faith hasn't died out in the slightest, it's just taken on new forms and shapes. And MBTI as a whole isn't one of them at its' core, because it doesn't hold the pretense of knowing all the answers, it specifically states that it DOESN'T and that it's just a theory, and one that doesn't cover much ground either, for that matter.

There ARE people who believe in it blindly, but they're missing the point. The difference between MBTI and some religions, though, is that MBTI doesn't profess to know everything, or to be infallible. Hence, the system itself is not based on blind faith, but rather, is projected such by the individual looking for something to hold their world togeather.

Which has the same end result, but then we may as well say that looney tunes is the key to blind faith, obviously, because someone MIGHT be on an acid trip and honestly believe the rather obviously hand drawn content to be reality in their warped state of awareness.

The issue isn't that MBTI is evil or that it is some self proclaimed 100% accurate tool for measuring people; inherantly it is neither. The issue, is that yeu project individuals failings upon it as if it were the cause. This's why people tend to direct their attacks against yeu personally; because it is yeur projecting that's at fault, which originates at the individual level. They can't argue against yeur position yeu hold because yeu don't actually hold one, other than the belief that people are stupid, except yeu're misappropriately applying that to other objects in a weird anthropomorphization of them.

Yes, people are stupid. No, this doesn't mean that a cigarette lighter is EVIL because someone was dumb enough to try to set their hand on fire; that just means that individual was dumb enough to try to set their hand on fire with a tool.

MBTI is a tool, and a self professed flawed one at that. It's not legal for use in courts any more than a 'lie detector' is, because they are both known to be inherently flawed and only provide vague approximations. They are tools, and ones, which if used appropriately, can provide a beginning of insight into another's mind, but hardly the full picture, and there will be cases where inaccuracies occur because both deal in absolutes to try to explain variables.

We are all introverted and extroverted in different situations, we just have general leanings towards one or the other. Yeu can't REALLY say "zomg I'm an extrovert!" because... no... yeu're really not. Yeu're just 'usually' an extrovert 'in most situations'. And even then it's not always accurate.

I dunno, I just find yeur claims of absolutes are more inherently 'evil' than the MBTI system yeu so claim to hate because yeu are doing the one thing it doesn't; profess that an absolute value is the equivalent of a variable. This isn't a personal attack, it's an observation of yeur own words. Yeu believe that something which claims to be a vague tool for trying to sort of understand other people, is instead claiming to be absolute truth, when nowheres is this ever listed as the case. There are individuals who abuse it as such, but this is the individual at fault.

Fact is, guns really DON'T kill people. People kill people. They'd do it without the use of guns, and did for a very long time. They used swords. They used axes. They used spears. They used rocks. They used rope. They used fire. They used their bare hands. People will find a way to kill each other regardless, but that is up to the individual; the tool just makes it easier for an individual to do so.

So, too, is MBTI; a tool. It makes it easier to understand other people. And it allows those that want to view the world in absolutes to try to categorize things which're highly complex as absolute values if they misuse it.

The flaw is not in the flawed system, but rather, in the belief that the flawed system is perfect. Except the flawed system is self proclaimed to be flawed, so the inherent fallacy is not in the system, as it is in the individual for ignoring the warnings provided.

I'm kind of going in circles in here but I'm not quite sure how else to explain this concept anymore. And I kind of have to go to class soooo out the door I go.
 

Lark

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Is this some ersatz form of masturbation for you? Perhaps you need to try the real deal for once, might help to relax all that tension.

You know I never thought of it quite like that but there's a lot of online behaviour that qualifies as that, definitely in this case or so it seems from the pace, style etc. of writing.
 

Night

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What makes you think that even constitutes faith to begin with? It's quite known throughout the Christian tradition(minus fundamentalism) that faith is a conviction made with adequate evidence to support it, or is the mere beginning of a wider understanding of the evidence.

Do tell. How does one define a conviction with 'adequate evidence' when dealing with a hypothetical deity?

I'm genuinely curious. I'd like to hear how you discern your model of evidential reasoning. I'd like to better my understanding.

Faith basically means trust. So I guess one can ask why is trust so important, or such a positive concept?

I don't really think we've progressed enough to redirect focus away from evidential faith v. non-evidential faith.

'Trust' probably isn't the correct term to use yet - at least as far as this discussion has moved.
 

Night

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Peguy?

Or, anyone for that matter - do you believe there is a way to gain (falsifiable) evidence-based perspective on the existence of a hypothetical deity?

Any and all suggestions are welcome.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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Peguy?

Or, anyone for that matter - do you believe there is a way to gain (falsifiable) evidence-based perspective on the existence of a hypothetical deity?

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Never say never.
 
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