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Knowing that yeu know nothing

Katsuni

Priestess Of Syrinx
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This's regarded by some religions, and several ideologies, as the stepping stone to all else. After giving it a little thought, I think I've actually already been doing so without realizing it consciously.

The basic idea, is that yeu know nothing; to understand or learn anything, yeu must first accept this, and understand that yeu truly do not know anything. One cannot correct a problem until the problem has been admitted to and identified.

Now that being said, we have a starting point to work with, similar to the "I think, therefore I am" starting point. Except... we can't really PROVE we think. We may believe such, but such can also be mere illusion and assumption. I've never truly had my thought process actively work, so much as it just magically comes up with related information and makes conclusions based on the information, but there's no real 'thinking' involved, it just happens. It's quite strange when yeu stop to try to think about the actual process...

Now that being said, we're stuck with knowing nothing. We can't even prove we exist, nor that we think. Great. So we have nothing at all.

And therein we can use that to determine that if we don't know anything, then we have no basis to assume that we know whot isn't either; we don't know that magic doesn't exist, that god is real, or that we aren't all linked to some hive mind a la the matrix. We have no clue whot is real, which means anything is possible.

Therefore, we can only rule based on whot seems most plausible, under the assumption that the information presented to us is accurate.

Our senses can be deceived, our minds can hallucinate or play tricks on us, our memories are largely just key points that get 'filled in' with guesstimates as needed.

Due to this, we really can only state whot we believe to be true, given this rather shaky foundation to work with.

Furthermore, this acceptance of our ignorance of reality as a whole, would put us on much better grounds to deal with people. We wouldn't really have racism because we would be able to accept that we flat out don't know anything about that person; all we have are assumptions. We wouldn't need ideological wars, as we would be able to accept others' viewpoints as merely a seperate interpretation, possibly due to having different information.

And most importantly, we'd be able to get over the concept of "knowing the truth".

Too many times we believe we "KNOW" whot god wants. Whot the heavans demand, that there is no afterlife, that we have a purpose and a destiny, and that everyone who disagrees is wrong.

Once we learn that we really flat out don't "KNOW" anything, maybe we can stop dealing in absolutes that only cause harm, and accept that there may be things out there beyond our understanding, and beyond our knowledge base.

Or maybe it's just late at night, I'm bored, and felt like ranting. Whichever.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
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Yep. We know nothing, and realizing that would be solution for just about everything. But I don't think the world will be enlightened anytime soon. But that doesn't matter, I am sure that as much as you can apply this attitude to your life, the more happy you will be in the long run.

What I would like to know is for whot reason yeu use these ugly looking word-alikes.
 

JustHer

Pumpernickel
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It's a dangerous thing though. Once the realization that you know nothing really sets itself into your mind, you just find yourself incapable of taking a stance on anything and really being partial to any idea as some sort of truth.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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Well that is the point. To take you close to insanity by the paradox. The idea seems to be to learn how to live with uncertainty.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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If you are able to live in constant uncertainty, you will be happy with what you have instead of wanting to have more. The quest for truth is usually powered by fear, so acceptance of uncertainty is courage. It is a lot easier to grasp this intellectually than live it, though... that's why we don't have many buddhas around...
 

JustHer

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If you are no longer wanting to have more, you'll be wanting to be wanting to have more. This living in uncertainty thing just sounds like not having any sense of self.
 

DMCubic

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JustHer: I think that to be able to live with uncertainty is incredibly liberating. It gives you a certain comfort in being where you are, because hey, you could spontaneously combust before you're done with breakfast tomorrow (or if that's too outlandish for you, you could choke on your frosted mini-wheats and be unable to Heimlich yourself before you pass out and asphyxiate). In the face of that knowledge, all your big plans for the future start to look pretty unimportant. It's not that you shouldn't go after the things you want, just that you shouldn't get ahead of yourself. That can only happen when you forget about uncertainty and imagine that your big plans have something over your mortality.

Also, knowing nothing doesn't mean you can't take a stand, or trust in the apparent regularities of the universe. All we know of physics is inductive only, so no physical law is ever truly known. So we don't *know,* infallibly, that that brick flying at us isn't going to feel soft and squishy on impact. But we will duck anyway. Same thing with morality - so what if there are no discernible moral truths? That doesn't mean you can't set someone straight for being mean and abusive, or give generously to friends and those in need.

In the absence of certain knowledge, we are free to reinvent ourselves. We see nothing in any aspect of our culture or upbringing that has inherent pull on us, so once we empty our teacups, we get to choose how to live our life in a completely new, much freer way.


*update* As for having no sense of self, that's a common misunderstanding. You might know that "self" is just a constructed term lacking any real referent, but so is "clock" or "chair." And I can tell you what a clock is, and I can tell you what a chair is. It's just that our conversations about those things are not the things themselves. My "self" is as much subject to phenomenological and empirical exploration (hey, this is a typology forum, after all) as it is a total mystery, and even though I have chosen to let go of the things I used to think I knew, I still have a center of presence in the world established through the felt familiarity with my body and my relationships to things and people.
 

Snow Turtle

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Considering that eastern religions usually focus on not being attached to the ego. You'd be correct in assuming that it's about the loss of self.
 

JustHer

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In the absence of certain knowledge, we are free to reinvent ourselves. We see nothing in any aspect of our culture or upbringing that has inherent pull on us, so once we empty our teacups, we get to choose how to live our life in a completely new, much freer way.

You say "much freer way" like its some sort of advantage. Maybe for a P it actually is, but I find the whole too much freedom thing to be disturbingly chaotic and unpleasant.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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If you are no longer wanting to have more, you'll be wanting to be wanting to have more.

You shouldn't be wanting to not be wanting, either. That's a tricky one. You can't WANT to be spontaneous, or it won't work.

You say "much freer way" like its some sort of advantage. Maybe for a P it actually is, but I find the whole too much freedom thing to be disturbingly chaotic and unpleasant.

Nah, it is chaotic and unpleasant to all. I think you learn to be better at it. You just need to piece by piece decide that this part of life is out of my control. Nothing really is in your control, but it seems impossible to get there straight away. After a while the chaos disappears and you will be in peace with the decision to let it go.

EDIT: Actually, thinking about types, I am a little jealous to SPs as they should be naturally more capable of doing this. I don't know many who are even interested in this kind of things, but the ones I know all seem to be NF... It is interesting how there are different approaches relating to type. My extrovert friend does yoga, while my own "practices" are based mainly on thinking.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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I noticed no NT's responded to this thread yet.

The title is all whack, the premise is illogical and I can't see how someone can possibly benefit from such a pessimistic state of mind.

That there's much more to learn than what we already know is a fact. And that in terms of the universe there's a long way to go for us. And due to our limited senses, unattainable to some degree.

Ultimatly, striving for more knowledge will always be worth more to me than wiping the slate clean.

So, to end with an inspirational sentence that goes against the topic title. Build on the foundations of others, don't try to invent the world yourself a new.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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It is a mind game, a paradox, it is not meant to be logical in that way. It is meant to lead you into a state that is not controlled by your ego's fears, inhibitions and wishes.
 

Fluffywolf

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It is meant to lead you into a state that is not controlled by your ego's fears, inhibitions and wishes.

Like I said, I can't see the benefits of that.
 

KDude

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Considering that eastern religions usually focus on not being attached to the ego. You'd be correct in assuming that it's about the loss of self.

i would consider myself somewhat of a taoist, but i definitely have an ego. nor do i plan on getting rid of it anytime soon. ;) i'm not convinced that it can be done with in one fell swoop, as buddhism teaches. but i am convinced it can improve over time. "live and learn" basically. there are many small moments when one's vision of the world is proven false - and you can either cry foul, persist in that pain and disillusionment, or accept it. and so far, i try to accept it. otherwise, i go on living with "Self" until another shattering moment comes along the way. :D maybe if i experience enough of them, i'll be ego-less and enlightened -- but i'm not there yet.
 

nolla

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Like I said, I can't see the benefits of that.

You don't see the benefit in seeing the world as it is, instead of seeing whatever it is your fears want you to see? When you "know" something, it distorts what you see, as you expect to see what you know. There's everything to gain in seeing without expecting to see...
 

Mole

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Mar 20, 2008
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This's regarded by some religions, and several ideologies, as the stepping stone to all else.

There is a lovely medieval book that addresses this.

It's called, "The Cloud of Unknowing", by Anonymous.

And the name of the author seems somehow appropriate.

I can remember dallying in the sunshine outside the Chifley Library with, "The Cloud of Unknowing", in my hand.

It was as though the author, anonymous as they are, were speaking directly to me. And it seemed as though the Weeping Willows, the Silver Birches and the flowers all had something to say.

But as there are so many anonymous members here, I am sure Anonymous is one of them.

We only have to listen.
 

Fluffywolf

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You don't see the benefit in seeing the world as it is, instead of seeing whatever it is your fears want you to see? When you "know" something, it distorts what you see, as you expect to see what you know. There's everything to gain in seeing without expecting to see...

It's true that the thought people attempt that scares the shit out of me. People living in such a distrustful way are capable of anything. I bet most extremists do this too, in order to justify their behaviour. :D
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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It's true that the thought people attempt that scares the shit out of me. People living in such a distrustful way are capable of anything. I bet most extremists do this too, in order to justify their behaviour. :D

I don't follow your thoughts. How do you see it dangerous? Maybe my explanations fell short, since I see nothing dangerous in this...

EDIT: Do you think that human nature is dangerous without definitions and control? Most of the evil comes from fear of not having control... Actually, I think you already know what I mean, in some way... See this, I noticed it earlier:

how do you define it?
I generally don't. Typically it's different for everyone, but mostly it's being able to share yourself with someone else and not feel entirely alone in the world.

what do you do with it?
I don't do anything with it.

You don't define and you don't do anything with it. That is how it is supposed to be. Unconditional. If you can live with someone keeping this attitude, then you got it. You don't demand anything as you know you can't control the other in any case. They give what they want to give and you are happy, since all this is bonus to you if you weren't expecting anything (defining it beforehand).
 
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