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Threshold ~ Where do you stop?

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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The best way I can describe my experience with the faith and reason dichotomy is that reason tells me it is possible that something outside of the physical universe may exist, but this cannot be proven or disproven. If it does exist, I should not assume my current paradigm of the physical universe applies to the spiritual dimension. My intuition is then willing to explore the reasonable possibilities.

I like this. :)
 

Domino

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Sleep is the natural defense of the poriferan to predators.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
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Sleep is the natural defense of the poriferan to predators.

Haha. You mean, they are defenseless. :D

I just don't let such extremely cosmic questions affect my life, and as such, think there is no need to debate them.
I'm also positive that there can be no resolve to the debate.
I tend to feel that religious arguments can only make for bad blood between people.
It makes me hurt mentally, and then I want to go to sleep.
 

Domino

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Haha. You mean, they are defenseless. :D

I just don't let such extremely cosmic questions affect my life, and as such, think there is no need to debate them.
I'm also positive that there can be no resolve to the debate.
I tend to feel that religious arguments can only make for bad blood between people.
It makes me hurt mentally, and then I want to go to sleep.

I agree. You can never really know what goes on just beyond us, but some of us really need to understand at least partially because it guides an internal mechanism. So I suppose it's less like "learning" than "what the heck is that and why am I constantly being drawn back to it".

If you go to sleep, you'll be helpless too. A sleepy poriferan would make a nice addition to any aquarium. :D
 

Eileen

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Faith really isn't that easy to find, so you don't have to be so hard on yourself.
We're at the mercy of God really - a benevolent God, thankfully.
The Bible says faith is a free gift from God. There's no other way to get it.
I think it has to start with a bit of humility on our parts - which is hard.

This was my first spiritual conundrum at a wee but terribly faithful fourteen. And I think nearly every spiritual conundrum since has had something to do with this one.

So faith is a free gift from God. Cool. We're totally beholden to grace, and man, that's beautiful. But what about those people who don't have faith? Did God gyp them? Did God just give certain people faith? If so, is God really good?
 

INTJMom

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This was my first spiritual conundrum at a wee but terribly faithful fourteen. And I think nearly every spiritual conundrum since has had something to do with this one.

So faith is a free gift from God. Cool. We're totally beholden to grace, and man, that's beautiful. But what about those people who don't have faith? Did God gyp them? Did God just give certain people faith? If so, is God really good?
I know what you're saying.

Just remember above all that God is Good.
 

Xander

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The best way I can describe my experience with the faith and reason dichotomy is that reason tells me it is possible that something outside of the physical universe may exist, but this cannot be proven or disproven. If it does exist, I should not assume my current paradigm of the physical universe applies to the spiritual dimension. My intuition is then willing to explore the reasonable possibilities.
I was with you up until the reasonable bit. See now if God is a reasonable conclusion then why aren't advanced alien races that seeded this world long ago or some other not commonly accepted answer?
I agree. You can never really know what goes on just beyond us, but some of us really need to understand at least partially because it guides an internal mechanism. So I suppose it's less like "learning" than "what the heck is that and why am I constantly being drawn back to it".
BINGO!!
This was my first spiritual conundrum at a wee but terribly faithful fourteen. And I think nearly every spiritual conundrum since has had something to do with this one.

So faith is a free gift from God. Cool. We're totally beholden to grace, and man, that's beautiful. But what about those people who don't have faith? Did God gyp them? Did God just give certain people faith? If so, is God really good?
Now this question really cuts to the core of it. Not one I'd think of as I see it as I'm outside looking in and you appear to be inside looking out (and doing a mighty fine job if I might say so).

So if there is a God and there's loads of people who can hear his call then why not me? I do look but I can't find it. Heck I've looked from as many perspectives as I can manage (hence the dislocated and eclectic thinking on the subject) but still no sign of my faith.
 

Xander

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Before I reply to this, thanks Jennifer. I was kind of all tense about this whole thing till I read this post.

I'm still tense but not as much as before. You're a gem.
I think Ti people can [are not required to, but CAN] have large "faith" issues. Remember when Thomson talked about Ti people, and how the function works? The one example she gave was of baseball, and someone responding to the system as it played out ... so the ball is hit, and all the men in the field shift position as the ball travels, and the player has to decide whether to run to the next base. Ti is deriving and responding to truth in the world around oneself, and everything is being taken into account, and the Ti person is flexing to it in real-time.

ISTPs seem to have more trouble with faith than INTPs, due to the S/N factor (S's tend to focus on only what can be shown, N's will interpolate and speculate based on what seems "reasonable" based on prior patterns... but note that even these patterns have been drawn from life experience!)

A lot of faith is assumption. You are handed prior explanations for the world, rather than necessarily deriving them yourself. What I think I really want to say is that, for the Ti person, the power of observation and the intellect to piece the information together is the "assumed authority" --whereas in religion, the Bible (or another holy book) is the authority, or a particular leader is the authority, and so on. Most religion promotes a different ultimate authority than what the Ti naturally uses. [For an Fi person, the outer world plus their own personal values are the authority.]
The authority thing is a major block to me. The whole idea of an exterior authority which passes rules down through intermediate's is quite foreign as an idea that I'd accept.
So you can definitely develop faith over time, but as an INTP it will be based on what you think is most reasonable, depending on your life experiences and observations. You will probably never be able to just buy into a particular book, or leader, or faith system that "predetermines the answers" until you have the personal life experience that validates that system.
I'd just like to HELL YEAH that particular quote.
As INTJMom says, you simply have to be humble enough to accept the evidence once it arrives (wherever it takes you), rather than fighting it. There is a tendency to become calcified in past beliefs regardless of new information, and humble people do not permit themselves to do that.
That's kind of what I'm doing by keep returning to the same question. It's kind of a "why not me" question. Why am I out of the loop?
See? The life experience (your basis for deriving truth) did not yet support what you were being told to believe. So you still believe what you've experienced (or not experienced), rather than a predetermined doctrine.
Exactly. The only religious person whom I've been around for a fair amount of time is Dom and I get the impression that he believes (or believed) because he felt it was right to do so. Him feeling something and me not is par for the course and so forms no real foundation for me to progress.
Oh, it's fair to ask. (And you should.)
Now this both shocked and comforted me. My brain asks though why I should ask? Should I ask or should I just be patient and wait for the answer? Is it right to question and if so then why do the very religions which I look to with envy ask me not to ask? Surely faith is the absence of question or that faith is what happens when you deny the question itself. Isn't it?
It's just not fair to demand. Let other people decide how much they will invest in your search.
Yes I am trying to be as polite and open as I can be. I expect to fail at some point and have been tempted to ask to have the whole thread closed so I don't get drawn in to some kind of ridiculous fight with the very people who are trying to help me. Based on your post and other's I decided that such was merely evading the question and cutting my nose off and what not. As such I will continue to try and behave and be as gracious and sensitive as I can. Here's hoping it works.
That is the mystery, isn't it? :)

I think that is why I call myself an agnostic theist right now. Intellectually, the impersonal proof is lacking... but I do see a common pattern of behavior and belief that I would deem healthy and good and mature, and it aligns with my idea of what God would be like. I just cannot give much lip service to standard religious authority or specific doctrine... :(
Interesting answer to the problem.

I shall not say more as it is your answer. No it does not satisfy the questions I find myself asking but that's probably because it's your solution and such things are personal. Oh nuts that sounds superior now... hope you get a different meaning when you read it as that's not what I meant. I mean it's your solution to your question and it does well to answer that.

Damn my lack of F.
 

INTJMom

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Yeah, I've got that part. It's the rest that I can't buy.
I am not a believer in "Predestination" or "Election" as taught by Calvin.
God pours out His grace on all.
Some say thank you. Some say no thanks.
 

Xander

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I am not a believer in "Predestination" or "Election" as taught by Calvin.
God pours out His grace on all.
Some say thank you. Some say no thanks.
:cry: What about those who just plain don't seem to be paying attention?
I think that if anything I'll find myself in that category!!
 

JAVO

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I was with you up until the reasonable bit. See now if God is a reasonable conclusion then why aren't advanced alien races that seeded this world long ago or some other not commonly accepted answer?

They are both reasonable conclusions given the subjective evidence. Of course, if one concludes that humanity or even our entire planet was created by an advanced alien race, that still begs the question of whether God exists or not. ;) ...and whether or not he created the alien race. :D

I think you'll find these interesting:

The Case Against Christianity by Michael Martin
The Improbability of God by Michael Martin (have not read this yet)
A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism by Ravi Zacharias
Can Man Live Without God? by Ravi Zacharias
 

Xander

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They are both reasonable conclusions given the subjective evidence. Of course, if one concludes that humanity or even our entire planet was created by an advanced alien race, that still begs the question of whether God exists or not. ;) ...and whether or not he created the alien race. :D

I think you'll find these interesting:

The Case Against Christianity by Michael Martin
The Improbability of God by Michael Martin (have not read this yet)
A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism by Ravi Zacharias
Can Man Live Without God? by Ravi Zacharias
Aye carumba!! That sounds like an intellectual of Descartes level and James Brown kinda evangelism!! Tough call. You reckon the deep end is the end to start? I'll go look them up in Otakers.
 

JAVO

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Aye carumba!! That sounds like an intellectual of Descartes level and James Brown kinda evangelism!! Tough call. You reckon the deep end is the end to start? I'll go look them up in Otakers.

Jump in--no one has ever learned to swim by wading! :D
 

INTJMom

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:cry: What about those who just plain don't seem to be paying attention?
I think that if anything I'll find myself in that category!!
I don't know what to say to that. I used to be in your shoes. I know it's hard.
Maybe this will encourage you?

Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
 

Eileen

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I don't think faith is a choice. You can't make yourself believe something that you just don't believe. You can pretend, or you can try with all of your heart to find the parts of the story that you CAN believe... but you can't just decide "hey, I think I will believe this improbable story now."
 

Xander

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I don't think faith is a choice. You can't make yourself believe something that you just don't believe. You can pretend, or you can try with all of your heart to find the parts of the story that you CAN believe... but you can't just decide "hey, I think I will believe this improbable story now."
I have to wonder what makes us continue to try even though we don't believe and have failed to believe even when we really tried to.

Either we're flies and this belief stuff is like glass to us or there really is a splinter in our minds driving us mad!!
 
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