Deep contemplations and still needing insight!

[Asterion]

TO KING OF DESPAIR (who is crazier than I):

OPTIMISTS FTW

YOU are crazy compared to me

Love the colours

Hang on, is this a modest ENTP I'm seeing here?

*looks in the mirror* AHH!

Oh, go buy one! I play the piano, but I do only improvising. For some reason, it is the one instrument where it just sounds better when I just go with my fingers rather than sheet music. Well, I do that with the violin and sometimes the clarinet, but the piano is just so fun to just go with it on! Buy one!

-and thus, pianothing has been added to the list of things to purchase with little to no spare money , I do however have a lot of songs I wish to learn, and I'd like to strengthen my understanding of music theory, at least to the level of 'capable musician', whatever that level may be.

ENTP on a tangent?

I always picture circles when I think of tangents, it surprised me when you drew a triangle lol.

I thoroughly enjoyed learning about Buddhism in the 7th or 8th grade, when I was like it is so completely illogical that there is a god who would screw a lot of people over. Then, later, much later, I decided that maybe he was just blown out of proportion.

But I really like Buddhism, the branch sans worship, because I like the ideas presented, and it is really interesting to see place on the individual. Of course, I gotta have the human pleasures of life, and cutting yourself off from those is not conducive to

A. producing some more of those little things we call babies (even though I don't think I want one...shhh)
B. living a wholesome life. Sometimes Buddhism seems like it is about emptying.

Do you mean that to be a buddhist, you have to refrain from "human pleasures"? Having a child would be one of the biggest impacts you could have on the world, it's bigger than any other impact you could think of... unless you blew up the sun or something catastrophic like that

Would you actually convert to a religion at all? I think that would be worthy of a thread

I think that's really spot on. I think also that deep down people know this so it's why they don't like to look for Truth. So they distract themselves, whether through pleasure, work, relationships, etc.

I've heard that before, what would someone who knows the 'truth' be like though? A dazed and cynical INTP?

You seem to be into spirituality Gerbah, do you mind me asking why?

 

[Antimony]

I personally believe that yes, we as a species will develop until we have become complete. If we developed until now, then I don't see why that development should stop short of the end. I think it will involve dealing with opposition because humans have consciousness and choice about whether or not to accept or reject truth.

The truth which people are afraid to look for! Of course we will continue developing, but what if in the end the developing is our downfall?

And yes, if we could have reality mixed in with how things are goverened, things would be perfect. But with something that is perfect...well, there is always room for improvement.

I read about this idea from A.H. Almaas. You can look him up on the internet. He has a certain system he came up with to recognise reality. He personally has a Sufi background but the system isn't to do with teaching a particular set of teachings, like a religion. It's more about how to figure things out for yourself, so you know for yourself. So if you are religious or not, it doesn't matter. It's just about a way that personally worked for him to sort out the filters that block you from seeing what is and to get you to know yourself. I don't personally use his system so I can't say that much about it, but I like some of his ideas and things about his approach.

As far as I understand, he says that our true nature is light in the sense that what we are, when you bring it right down to the essentials, is awareness. So, not the physical body, the emotions or even ego consciousness and personality, we are not bounded by time and space, etc. (like light). We just believe those things because it is what we have identified with, e.g. some people place their identity (i.e. saying “I” am this or that) very much in their body and its boundaries, or their feelings or, most commonly, their ego and personality. If you want to read his work, I can highly recommend The Pearl Beyond Price – Integration of Personality into Being: An Object Relations Approach. It combines the findings of psychology, particularly object relations theory, with spirituality.

It is interesting to me because there are very old religions that also say stuff about light, e.g. such and such person's light as existing before the world began. So it's an old idea.

Wow, that is really interesting. I kind of like that light idea. If our concsiousness goes beyond time and all, like that of light, then that makes things even more interesting. What is your opinion on what will happen when we die? Or 'die'. If we do go beyond all that is physical, why should we want to go to a heaven, with everyone else, as opposed to exploring? I think I would rather explore and learn and study humans and watch them interact than sit on a fluffy white cloud and be bored. Well, if you can be bored up there. If there even is an up there. We could all just be one mass of light connecting with each other.

Our bodies are reallllly just lampshades

 

[Antimony]

Love the colours

Hang on, is this a modest ENTP I'm seeing here?

*looks in the mirror* AHH!

NO! IT CANNOT EXIST!!!! *hides*

-and thus, pianothing has been added to the list of things to purchase with little to no spare money , I do however have a lot of songs I wish to learn, and I'd like to strengthen my understanding of music theory, at least to the level of 'capable musician', whatever that level may be.

Then you should get on vent/record yourself and post a video! Yayayayyayayayyay!

I always picture circles when I think of tangents, it surprised me when you drew a triangle lol.

I felt like being different. Tangent = opposite over adjacent. So does that mean ENTP on top of over ENTJ or INTP???

Do you mean that to be a buddhist, you have to refrain from "human pleasures"? Having a child would be one of the biggest impacts you could have on the world, it's bigger than any other impact you could think of... unless you blew up the sun or something catastrophic like that

From what I have read, you are supposed to refrain from sex, drugs, etc. You are supposed to want nothing in order to obtain Nirvana. Soooo yeah. I am a tad on the hedonistic side and like my stuff. So I may create a hybrid form of Buddhism

Would you actually convert to a religion at all? I think that would be worthy of a thread

Possibly. Make it a thread then! Some people are born into a belief that they shall never let go of, but others see more in logic and reasoning, and yet others still see more in...well, something else.

 

[Gerbah]

Our bodies are reallllly just lampshades

LOL, that made me laugh. But yeah, maybe so. So what would an ISTJ lampshade look like? Something boring and functional I guess, as so many people like to point out

 

[Antimony]

LOL, that made me laugh. But yeah, maybe so. So what would an ISTJ lampshade look like? Something boring and functional I guess, as so many people like to point out

Hahahha, are you boring and functional? You seem spiritual and colorful! Kinda like an INFJ, only with practicality, but still not an INTJ haha

I can see the thread now...what would the types be as lampshades?

Or

Or this one!

 

[Zoom]

I have sort of been contemplating the world, our place, etc (with Nihilistic conclusions being drawn, which I dislike a bit. Makes me feel like there is no room for progress) and would really like to hear people's opinions on spirituality, what they believe (whether you are religious with spiritual practices, or just spiritual. Or whatever the hell you believe. It may not even be spiritual. I am going to shut up now).

I did read through the other pages... and here are mine.

To me, the world is an intrinsically beautiful place. There are cycles, patterns, and abrupt changes that have nothing to do with us, and will continue long after we're gone unless we manage to destroy what is currently alive on this planet. Then it will simply take a different form the next time around.

There is a feeling of being able to be... in tune... with natural forms. Trees, animals, large bodies of water all have their own harmonic hums to me, and I don't like cities - too much noise with no sense of recycling energy and giving it back, like being in the outdoors does. I hear the silence within the quiet when I am alone, and in nature. Voicing this can make me sound an utter hippie, but that is irrelevant and untrue. Music can have the same effect, a transport to another level where calm is without effort and I don't think as much as simply be.

When it comes to humans, picking one religion and sticking to it seems too limiting to me; it discards the possibility that perhaps everyone is a little bit right, or no one is, that science might be able to answer everything or is ignoring a key element to our existence.

I don't know what is exactly correct, and I'm comfortable with that - not because I'm uninterested in the answer (quite the opposite), but because I know I could spend my entire life contemplating the nature of existence and still not end up with definitive answers... and in the mean time I'd miss out on actually living my life.

Contemplation is always a low thrum in the back of my head, and unless I am fully in the moment I never stop. But I'm slowly learning to calm down and pursue the realization of my self at my own pace, as many of the same principles I've become aware of through courses on philosophy can be found in daily life on a more practical, less lofty basis. But ye do have to have awareness for those nuggets to hit ye - I've seen plenty of people seem to almost purposefully learn nothing from their own life until forced to.

This is my spirituality: I think there is something, but as to what it is I do not know, what I feel in energy and the interconnectedness. What we do within humanity does matter, however, because this is what we are. Whether or not a deity considers us her children, or if there is life on other planets - these are fascinating to think about. One thing that can be known for certain, however, is that one can affect their own sphere of influence to be a more positive place.

I don't know what to say other than this. Hopefully ye at least receive something minor out of it.

 

[Antimony]

I have received something more than minor

I like your expression of the connection with silence and nature. I do like that. Generally, my contemplating is more to the back of my head, but lately it has been towards the front. I like people's opinions. It seems none of them are wrong, and none make no sense. In fact, they are all true. You have just now added the nature element

I like to make sure I don't miss out on living my life. Sometimes I do end up contemplating more than doing

So you feel, and that is what your spirituality is, and that you know there is something. That is kind of how I have been going about things. But thank you
I enjoyed reading that.

And like you said about limits, I try to avoid them. I am looking for room for growth. Trying to look at a science viewpoint, but connecting it with more spiritual things. I guess they are connected...just the science of energies and the earth. You have given me more to think about. Thank you again.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

TO LIQUID LASER:



Hm. It doesn't really matter what you are, Christian or not, this is just kind of a discussion now about beliefs. But anyways, the 'hm' as to the discovering of truth. Of course, you are quite right in saying this, and it is kind of interesting to think of the shift in my mind happening.

I try to make my own mind up on viewpoints. I try to look at everything from all angles. For now, I just kind of go with what seems most logical/beneficial. Somethings make sense, some do not. My goal is to figure out what does not make sense.

And that statement makes me feel a little...hm. It makes me think a bit. Maybe it is dangerous. What if I learn such truth and don't want to know it?

One problem with logic is that it will never lead you to Truth. It will only lead you away from falsehood. If you really don't know any Truth to begin with then logic will be useless to you.

Logic is a lot like mathematics. (After all mathematics is purely based on logic.) Mathematics is perfect as long as it stays theoretical, but it can run into problems when you start applying it to reality. Some mathematical models are a close match to reality. Other models are totally inaccurate. But even the inaccurate ones are 100% logical.

Logic works in a similar way: GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT...or...TRUTH IN, TRUTH OUT. What you get out of logic is only as good as what you put into it. But in order to find a starting point, that first real Truth, you can't rely on logic.

Like I said before you'll recognize Truth when a paradigm shift happens in your mind, and you will understand things that did not make sense before. It is very much like the allegory of the cave from Socrates/Plato (if you are familiar with that). You can't reason your way to the Truth. Instead you simply have to see the light. But once you see the light you won't be able to go back to the realm of darkness and shadows.

 

[Asterion]

NO! IT CANNOT EXIST!!!! *hides*





Then you should get on vent/record yourself and post a video! Yayayayyayayayyay!




I felt like being different. Tangent = opposite over adjacent. So does that mean ENTP on top of over ENTJ or INTP???





From what I have read, you are supposed to refrain from sex, drugs, etc. You are supposed to want nothing in order to obtain Nirvana. Soooo yeah. I am a tad on the hedonistic side and like my stuff. So I may create a hybrid form of Buddhism



Possibly. Make it a thread then! Some people are born into a belief that they shall never let go of, but others see more in logic and reasoning, and yet others still see more in...well, something else.

This will take some time on my behalf, I'm gettin a piano tomorrow (maybe, I have heaps of other stuff to take care of), and I'll have learned something awesome and videoed it by the weekend... in the meantime, I'm going to convert to neo-buhhdism for... 2 weeks? lol... and possibly include that in the vid. then add some shred, and answer some questions maybe... all in 5 minutes time :crazy: and the vid. has to meet my expectations, which are abnormally high.

ENTP on ENTJ... using some real crazy logic... ummm I started with a circle, which has connection to pie, which contains the letters I and P, and since a circle isn't a triangle, INTP is infact inside the circle, and INTP can't be in two places at once... sort of, which eliminates INTP, but leaves ENFP and ENTJ.

 

[Gerbah]

What is your opinion on what will happen when we die? Or 'die'. If we do go beyond all that is physical, why should we want to go to a heaven, with everyone else, as opposed to exploring? I think I would rather explore and learn and study humans and watch them interact than sit on a fluffy white cloud and be bored. Well, if you can be bored up there. If there even is an up there. We could all just be one mass of light connecting with each other.

I think there is a heaven and a hell, but not in the sense of a cloud or something. That is just an image, where it came from I don't know. As far as I know, there isn't any revealed religion that mentions clouds.

why should we want to go to a heaven, with everyone else, as opposed to exploring?

And “going” to “heaven” is also still just an image. You can't really know something unless you experience it, but if I want to tell you about something you don't know, I have to use images, but the image is not the thing itself. For example, we have established that there is at least one thing we know of, i.e. light, that doesn't exist within time. So if there is no time, what is “going” then? And what is “up” and “down” in a plane where there is no space? I think when religions tell us there is a “heaven” and a “hell” and we will “go” there and one is “up” and the other is “down”, similarly these are images that tell us something of the nature of something that we have not experienced yet. So we must be told analogously using images of things we do know. In my view, this is what the prophetically revealed religions mean when they describe heaven and hell. It's just not possible for it to be literal.

And I think there will actually be a lot to explore once we're out of this time/space bound existence.

Apart from that, I do think there must be a heaven and hell purely because of cause and effect. I mean, cause and effect governs everything. So I see heaven and hell as the ultimate effect for us of what we have caused. Sure, this involves an intuitive leap. But it is a convincing one to me. E.g. let's say someone does something really heinous and they get caught but whatever punishment they get just doesn't match what they did and all its side-effects. As a victim I might feel, where's the justice in that? Personally, I feel there must be a perfect justice or I wouldn't be feeling that something is not right and not enough. And who's not to say that the right time for completion of justice doesn't come later? Why must it necessarily be right now? In “time”, which doesn't even exist for everything.

 

[Gerbah]

You seem to be into spirituality Gerbah, do you mind me asking why?

Not sure I can say why exactly. For me, it started just out of curiosity. A thought floated into my head one day of "What is the truth? Lots of people say what it is but I don't actually know for myself. I would like to know." So one question leads to others.

 

[Antimony]

To Liquid Laser: I rather would like the truth. Your post got me thinking for a bit, but I really do think I would rather be enlightened, no matter how painful the truth, or how much I would really rather not know it. I don't know how I will come upon such a truth though. I would have to go out searching, I suppose. Or somehow it would just come to me haha

To Gerbah:

*digests like she did Liquid Laser's*

You ask really, really good questions. They make me think, a lot. You actually make me look even more to death (not because I am depressed, but because I want to know, so badly).

What is this Earth?
What is this time?
What is everything if it is naught but nothing?

 

[Mad Hatter]

What is everything if it is naught but nothing?

If I may quietly jump into this thread ...

First of all, why do you think that everything is nothing, and what does nothing mean in that respect? The world is ephemeral inasmuch that our lifetime is limited and knowledge of an afterlife does not exist, including the question whether there is one. So the conclusion would be that it is reasonable to make the most of the things we can be certain of, i.e. that very limited span of time at our disposal.
Of course this doesn't answer the question of what everything is. (At this point I want to quietly add that ontology has always been fairly obscure to me).
It's a really interesting question to ask though ... Suffice it to say for the beginning that our world is more than nothing (not very creative or insightful, I admit), but let me ask you another question:
Can you imagine true nothingness?

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

To Liquid Laser: I rather would like the truth. Your post got me thinking for a bit, but I really do think I would rather be enlightened, no matter how painful the truth, or how much I would really rather not know it.

Good. That is how I feel too.

I don't know how I will come upon such a truth though. I would have to go out searching, I suppose. Or somehow it would just come to me haha

Both of your ideas are correct. The best way to find luck is to go out and look for some.

 

[Feops]

Faith in understanding.

 

[Paisley]

It's great being in the company of ENTP's, I love how you guys attack life, full on, at a million miles an hour and are well developed critical thinkers. Hey yo!

Everyone has touched on the problems in finding truth, and I'll just summarize the four questions that have come up so far; origin (where did we come from; cosmology), meaning (for what purpose did we come into existence), morality (how to live justly between people), and finding hope to give us a continued assurance; in keeping with the previous questions.

I'm not a relativist, so the answers to those questions have to be correspondingly true, and as a whole, coherent. Like Liquid Laser has said though, you have to experience it, and as some of my friends have suggested, you have to identify with truth itself.

I have experienced the truth of unity in diversity through my faith relationship with Christ. Existentially, Christ offers the answers to our origin, meaning, morality, and gives hope that assures a destiny, for me. In practicality it sounds like this: I was made by God (origin), I was made to live in a covenant relationship with God (meaning), I was made to exist within the boundaries of that relationship (morality), and Christ came to earth to live within us and give us a hope that assures an eternal destiny. Everything about it, to me, represents love and what a gift it is to be alive. Unsettling questions like what is this earth, this time, and our ultimate purpose, just dissolve away, in light of what I've experienced through knowing Christ in my life.

 

[wren]

Okay! So I don't really know how to research this, so I thought I would post something on here.

I have sort of been contemplating the world, our place, etc (with Nihilistic conclusions being drawn, which I dislike a bit. Makes me feel like there is no room for progress) and would really like to hear people's opinions on spirituality, what they believe (whether you are religious with spiritual practices, or just spiritual. Or whatever the hell you believe. It may not even be spiritual. I am going to shut up now).

Not so much for religion, although I do think it would be interesting to hear your view points and why, I am just saying that the purpose is not for religion, just more so for information on spirituality and practices or beliefs.

I ask because /disclosure/ Storytime /disclosure/ my friend has a new boyfriend who knows much about the such, and also about the human body and ways of stimulating it (not necessarily sexually, but that as well. Which I also want to know about, and making someone feel good in the not so obvious ways, but I don't think this is the place to post it), and I would absolutely love it if someone could provide me some insight, because I detest being behind on information.

Not knowing where this question is leading (sounds rather sinister) I will add my 3cents. Yes it is possible to confuse spirituality with pleasure of the body and many MANY people throughout the ages have known this. It's not a great SECRET or anything. yours truly...the undercover lover

 

[Antimony]

If I may quietly jump into this thread ...

First of all, why do you think that everything is nothing, and what does nothing mean in that respect?

Wait, did I say everything is nothing
I am unsure, actually. I am just trying to figure this all out. I actually don't really think anything like that, I was just presenting an angle.

The world is ephemeral inasmuch that our lifetime is limited and knowledge of an afterlife does not exist, including the question whether there is one. So the conclusion would be that it is reasonable to make the most of the things we can be certain of, i.e. that very limited span of time at our disposal.
Of course this doesn't answer the question of what everything is. (At this point I want to quietly add that ontology has always been fairly obscure to me).
It's a really interesting question to ask though ... Suffice it to say for the beginning that our world is more than nothing (not very creative or insightful, I admit), but let me ask you another question:
Can you imagine true nothingness?

Yeah, I suppose it is more than nothing, otherwise it wouldn't exist. But nothing is a something, I suppose. I don't know. By our definition, it is a something.

And if I could imagine true nothingness, I wouldn't be here. I really can't. I don't understand what nothing means.

Faith in understanding.

Understanding the universe?

It's great being in the company of ENTP's, I love how you guys attack life, full on, at a million miles an hour and are well developed critical thinkers. Hey yo!

Hey, thanks! I may be a critical thinker, but I seem to be having problems being articulate

Everyone has touched on the problems in finding truth, and I'll just summarize the four questions that have come up so far; origin (where did we come from; cosmology), meaning (for what purpose did we come into existence), morality (how to live justly between people), and finding hope to give us a continued assurance; in keeping with the previous questions.

I'm not a relativist, so the answers to those questions have to be correspondingly true, and as a whole, coherent. Like Liquid Laser has said though, you have to experience it, and as some of my friends have suggested, you have to identify with truth itself.

Gotta find the truth first, though. But let's tackle what you have to say, which I am about to read next!

I have experienced the truth of unity in diversity through my faith relationship with Christ.

Curious, how did this come to be? Your faith and the truth you have experienced.

Existentially, Christ offers the answers to our origin, meaning, morality, and gives hope that assures a destiny, for me. In practicality it sounds like this: I was made by God (origin)

And to God you will return for judging, one day, as it is written at least.

I was made to live in a covenant relationship with God (meaning), I was made to exist within the boundaries of that relationship (morality), and Christ came to earth to live within us and give us a hope that assures an eternal destiny.

How do you know all this is true? I know what it says, and the basic reasons. I know Christianity offers reasons and answers, but how do you know?

Everything about it, to me, represents love and what a gift it is to be alive. Unsettling questions like what is this earth, this time, and our ultimate purpose, just dissolve away, in light of what I've experienced through knowing Christ in my life.

It is a gift. Whoever/whatever created me, it certainly has been a great life. But I was created to question and challenge, even that which created me.

I can't just accept that I will die one day, and not know, just follow blindly until I have met my judging. I think of time, space, how we were created, things that make the normal human's mind spin and spin for hours. And yet, as much as I hate it, I can't not ask the questions. I want to see if I can put into some boundaries some truth, some ideas.

Even if I don't know everything, having such a relationship doesn't make it all go away for me. In fact, if I were to follow strongly in such a relationship, the guarantee of such a passage one day would make me question it all the more. I suppose I will experience the finding of some kind of truth one day, or accept some of Christianity. But I have to read the Bible, figure out what I think is true, what ideas have been manipulated (that is the thing, there are so many interpretations and manipulations. I don't think you go to hell for every little thing. One lie you don't regret, homosexuality, being of another religion, etc)

Not knowing where this question is leading (sounds rather sinister) I will add my 3cents. Yes it is possible to confuse spirituality with pleasure of the body and many MANY people throughout the ages have known this. It's not a great SECRET or anything. yours truly...the undercover lover

Haha, thank you undercover lover!

*shrugs*

Maybe there is something to spirituality and pleasure though.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Wait, did I say everything is nothing
I am unsure, actually. I am just trying to figure this all out. I actually don't really think anything like that, I was just presenting an angle.

Why I wrote that:

What is everything if it is naught but nothing?

Yeah, I suppose it is more than nothing, otherwise it wouldn't exist. But nothing is a something, I suppose. I don't know. By our definition, it is a something.

Nothing is a someting inasmuch as it is a word, or a concept represented by a word - insofar I would agree; semantically though it is the opposite of any "something" there is.
I really don't know much about this myself (but this book seems to be quite interesting). In any case perception and consciousness both are crucial as they are the only ways to experience the outer world (and not only perception, but also its interpretation).

And if I could imagine true nothingness, I wouldn't be here. I really can't. I don't understand what nothing means.

That's why I think that a) the number zero is one of the greatest inventions ever made and b) negation is a really interesting phenomenon (because it lets us express at least a certain degree of nothingness).

I have often wondered: If the universe is in fact limited, what does its limit look like? Maybe a "limited universe" actually means that after the last galaxy, there simply is nothing but vacuum extending endlessly. But then again I think infinity, in its last degree, is almost as incomprehensible as nothingness.

 

[Paisley]

How do you know all this is true? I know what it says, and the basic reasons. I know Christianity offers reasons and answers, but how do you know?

Experiencing forgiveness and grace from the burden of my mistakes is how I have faith, and my faith is how I know. Call it a moment of realization or surrender where God met me where I was at when I was confused about life and in that moment I found identity in Christ. I had repented and I had been forgiven, and only my heart knows what freedom that is like. My faith relationship allows me even further freedom and access to question God and understand why things are as they are, set within that relationship, because I've found that God wants to know me. You rightly say God will judge, as a moral God should, but that same God came to earth to forgive everyone, and for me, that act of love epitomizes what everything is all about, how much he really wants to know us. If you're going to

read the Bible, figure out what I think is true

, then I encourage you to keep an open mind and to start with the gospel of John because it's easy to read. The link may help you.

John 1 - Passage