INTP and hating religion.

[Night]

How come this shit hasn't been split into another thread yet? The topic is supposd to be about INTPs and their perspective on religion, not a debate about stances/takes on Christianity. No one's even mentioned INTPs for like 100 posts.

The original question is two-fold. We're covering the latter part.

Is it because I am an INTP that I hate religion?

[..]

So, if you go to church and/or like anything about it or organized religion. Why? I want to understand!

 

[Robert165]

That is just one interpretation of the bible.

You can't use that as justification. It's like me asking someone to prove their God, and them pointing towards the bible. It is not proof.

You are doing the exact same thing here. Me asking for proof, and you just pointing towards an interpretation. How can you be so certain that your understanding is the true one? You haven't answered that. Not to mention it doesn't even seem like you know that much about christianity in a holistic manner. For example: When you attempted to take a dig at christianity with it's slavery, only to be rebutted by Pegus on the issue.

If you don't understand christianity fully, can you really complain about it? I would not think so. It's like arguing about the physics of universe without understanding the all the different views on how it could work.

1- the attitude of the bible twoards slavery is quite clear. slaves should obe ythier masters and masters should treat their slaves well. It says absolutely noting about slavery being wrong or needing to be abolished. If you go into the OT, it actually gets a lot worse, calling for the enslavement of the enemies of the jews.

2- hell is not just "one interpretation" of the bible. its right there, in the book. i didn't put it there. "other interpretations" means well that parts really unpleasent so we are just going to try and pretend it doesnt exist. but the concept still exists.

 

[Night]

and i'm not iterested in an expanded view of christiaity/religion. becasue at the core of it sits and idea so reprehensible. even if i wanted to take your advice, and i dont, but even if i wanted to my sense of fairness and morality would not allow me to.

Thank you for conceding my final point - the one about you not knowing what you're criticizing because you haven't taken the time to appropriately research it.

Best of luck. It must be difficult to exist in a culture that you profess so little knowledge of. I encourage you to change your stance. The world becomes less threatening when we take the time to understand our role in it.

This, of course, isn't possible until we can appropriately perceive the world.

 

[Robert165]

Thank you for conceding my final point - the one about you not knowing what you're criticizing because you haven't taken the time to appropriately research it.

Best of luck. It must be difficult to exist in a culture that you profess so little knowledge of. I encourage you to change your stance. The world becomes less threatening when we take the time to understand our role in it.

This, of course, isn't possible until we can appropriately perceive the world.

why don't you quiz me on some christian topics if you're so sure i know nothing about the religion.........

 

[Lark]

no, its not, its like rejecting god and then having god send you to hell to suffer forever. do you really think anybody would CHOOSE to do that. like, here's the fire, stick you hand in it??????

no, you people call for me to BELIEVE in christ. its not enoough to acknowldge that god is XYZ and i need jesus for XYZ + ABC in order to reach salvation. i could say anything to save my skin, but i can't believe an immoral, cruel system of punishment is FAIR.

I dont need anything from you. Sorry about that but what you believe, how you live and how you deal with the consequences is your own affair, we arent even close man how can even guess what my needs are?

OK, not sure how to frame this, you're arguing with a bogey of your own making here or perhaps someone you've had contact with other than me, fine, but like I've said before God isnt sending you anywhere, God has an unconditional love for you, right, love cant compell, if you dont want it that's fine, no ones keeping you in his prescence but dont expect to be happy, content and free from any disturbance if you want to live without God or love.

The whole of Christianity is about dispelling myths and illusions and the false logic of earlier creedos, its the pagan faiths, the poly theisms, animism, totemism etc. which encourage people to live in terror of unintentionally slighting some or other vengeful, jealous diety. Also, seeing as Jesus was God incarnate, its hard to see how you'd embrace God while rejecting him but I'm sure you'll manage if you've made your mind up.

 

[Snow Turtle]

1- the attitude of the bible twoards slavery is quite clear. slaves should obe ythier masters and masters should treat their slaves well. It says absolutely noting about slavery being wrong or needing to be abolished. If you go into the OT, it actually gets a lot worse, calling for the enslavement of the enemies of the jews.

2- hell is not just "one interpretation" of the bible. its right there, in the book. i didn't put it there. "other interpretations" means well that parts really npleasent so we are just going to try and pretend it doesnt exist. but the concept still exists.

1. Just because the bible does not say slavery is not wrong. Does that mean that it should/must be practiced? Society has decided that we do not want harmful slavery and thus has abolished harmful slavery, and with it the possability of normal slavery as suggested in the bible.

What is a butler? What is a worker? Are humans really that much more free? What is a slave?

2. Yet again. You've ignored the part where I stated the bible could have been mistranslated. That people could have editted the bible since it was written. That the channelers themselves misinterpreted the message given by God. There's just so much variables that I'm not so sure how you can assert the common interpretation of the bible as truth.

FACT is.

There are people who believe that the idea of hell within the bible is a) mistranslation b) added in by people to control the mass. Now if what they say is true. How can you be so certain that your idea that HELL is definitely in the bible is the true interpretation/understanding/original document.

Truth is. You can't. I'm done here... since I know this will just end up going in circles. You've already mentioned to other posters here that you aren't willing to explore christianity properly before making judgement on whether it makes sense or not, or whether your current understanding of christianity is even the truth.

 

[Night]

why don't you quiz me on some christian topics if you're so sure i know nothing about the religion.........

I don't know what you know. Only you know what you know.

And, you just got done telling me you know nothing. . .

and i'm not iterested in an expanded view of christiaity/religion. because at the core of it sits and idea so reprehensible. even if i wanted to take your advice, and i dont, but even if i wanted to my sense of fairness and morality would not allow me to.

Case closed.

 

[Lark]

1- the attitude of the bible twoards slavery is quite clear. slaves should obe ythier masters and masters should treat their slaves well. It says absolutely noting about slavery being wrong or needing to be abolished. If you go into the OT, it actually gets a lot worse, calling for the enslavement of the enemies of the jews.

2- hell is not just "one interpretation" of the bible. its right there, in the book. i didn't put it there. "other interpretations" means well that parts really unpleasent so we are just going to try and pretend it doesnt exist. but the concept still exists.

What does Jesus say about slavery? I'm pretty sure he was clear on that point, the whole do unto others as you would have them do unto you I'm pretty sure isnt a big plus for enslavement, you ought to know that a proper understanding of Christian biblical scholarship involves a recognition that the old testament is only included in so far as it verifies that Jesus is the expected messiah and also as a contrast, demonstrating Jesus' differential interpretation of existing scriptures contra the opinions which had grown up over time.

Of course the concept of hell exists, it exists outside of and apart from the bible too, Hades, The Underworld etc. Its not an invention of Christianity to spread the gospel. Whether its the sinners reward or not depends upon the culture and context.

 

[Robert165]

I dont need anything from you. Sorry about that but what you believe, how you live and how you deal with the consequences is your own affair, we arent even close man how can even guess what my needs are?

OK, not sure how to frame this, you're arguing with a bogey of your own making here or perhaps someone you've had contact with other than me, fine, but like I've said before God isnt sending you anywhere, God has an unconditional love for you, right, love cant compell, if you dont want it that's fine, no ones keeping you in his prescence but dont expect to be happy, content and free from any disturbance if you want to live without God or love.

The whole of Christianity is about dispelling myths and illusions and the false logic of earlier creedos, its the pagan faiths, the poly theisms, animism, totemism etc. which encourage people to live in terror of unintentionally slighting some or other vengeful, jealous diety. Also, seeing as Jesus was God incarnate, its hard to see how you'd embrace God while rejecting him but I'm sure you'll manage if you've made your mind up.

more presumption! who in their right mind wouldn't want to be happy and live in love? its quite insulting for you to say that people who don't think like you have rejected the truth instead of admiting truth can't exist if it contradicts itself.

and no, you calling god loving does not make it so. all i've done is take the word "love" and look at his actions and see that they don't match. he's god. he could snap his fingers and forgive everyone. thats not what he does.

 

[Robert165]

There are people who believe that the idea of hell within the bible is a) mistranslation b) added in by people to control the mass. Now if what they say is true. How can you be so certain that your idea that HELL is definitely in the bible is the true interpretation/understanding/original document.

then i guess its a pretty stupid book to follow

 

[Snow Turtle]

then i guess its a pretty stupid book to follow

Why do you think that not all christians are creationists?

Because not all christians believe that everything within the bible is literal and understand that some parts may be interpretation. Then there are people who believe in the christian God, but do not attend church or believe in the bible. What are they?

You still have to answer the question. How are you so certain that your interpretation/understanding of the bible is the truth?

 

[Robert165]

Why do you think that not all christians are creationists?

Because not all christians believe that everything within the bible is literal and understand that some parts may be interpretation. Then there are people who believe in the christian God, but do not attend church or believe in the bible. What are they?

if someone finds fault with the bible and continues to "beleive" in it i'd say that's an obvious need for secuirty and the expense of rational thought.

You still have to answer the question. How are you so certain that your interpretation/understanding of the bible is the truth?

I don't know the truth about god. I don't think anyone can. But that doesn't prevent me from noticing that the words the bible uses to describe god are contradictory.

 

[Lark]

more presumption! who in their right mind wouldn't want to be happy and live in love? its quite insulting for you to say that people who don't think like you have rejected the truth instead of admiting truth can't exist if it contradicts itself.

and no, you calling god loving does not make it so. all i've done is take the word "love" and look at his actions and see that they don't match. he's god. he could snap his fingers and forgive everyone. thats not what he does.

I've not presumed anything, I do think you are becoming defensive. I'm interested in carrying on this dialogue but maybe you need a chance to cool your jets, I'm not seeking to undermine or attack you. Just so you know. Neither is it my intention to insult you.

What truth is contradicting itself? Who doesnt think like me and what way are they rejecting truth?

OK, explain to me how the supposed actions of God do not match love. I dont understand that one, he creates everything for the enjoyment of man, creates a law to underwrite the deal, arrives in person when that gets so, so badly obscured and endures the very worst its possible for humanity to deal out all of which without deciding to have a fire sale and start from scratch.

Now, forgiveness, there's lots of evidence of the forgiving nature of God, consider the life and ministry of Jesus and his example, even if you dont believe his words look at the example, he could have had his people take up arms at any time, wreck havoc and start war like the expected Hebrew messiah but he didnt. Not even when they came to apprehend him. No instead he heals the ear of the soldier who has it cut of by one of Jesus' supporters.

I just dont understand were this unforgiving, condemning figure comes from, it doesnt reflect the reality at all but its instead a straw man which you've created to fit the frame and argument you're choosing to field.

No personally that kind of boundless and unlimited generosity is sure beyond what humanity is capable of, despite believing its a good idea I know I'm not capable of it, its counter intuitive. In fact by human standards it could be considered as too forgiving, capricious because it rewards the virtuous and villainous all the same provided there is genuine repentence and remorse.

 

[Lark]

if someone finds fault with the bible and continues to "beleive" in it i'd say that's an obvious need for secuirty and the expense of rational thought.


I don't know the truth about god. I don't think anyone can. But that doesn't prevent me from noticing that the words the bible uses to describe god are contradictory.

Yeah, what's the core text of rationalism BTW?

Didnt Aristotle and Socrates believe in the "natural slave", neither of them condemned slavery.

 

[Robert165]

I've not presumed anything, I do think you are becoming defensive. I'm interested in carrying on this dialogue but maybe you need a chance to cool your jets, I'm not seeking to undermine or attack you. Just so you know. Neither is it my intention to insult you.

What truth is contradicting itself? Who doesnt think like me and what way are they rejecting truth?

OK, explain to me how the supposed actions of God do not match love. I dont understand that one, he creates everything for the enjoyment of man, creates a law to underwrite the deal, arrives in person when that gets so, so badly obscured and endures the very worst its possible for humanity to deal out all of which without deciding to have a fire sale and start from scratch.

Now, forgiveness, there's lots of evidence of the forgiving nature of God, consider the life and ministry of Jesus and his example, even if you dont believe his words look at the example, he could have had his people take up arms at any time, wreck havoc and start war like the expected Hebrew messiah but he didnt. Not even when they came to apprehend him. No instead he heals the ear of the soldier who has it cut of by one of Jesus' supporters.

I just dont understand were this unforgiving, condemning figure comes from, it doesnt reflect the reality at all but its instead a straw man which you've created to fit the frame and argument you're choosing to field.

No personally that kind of boundless and unlimited generosity is sure beyond what humanity is capable of, despite believing its a good idea I know I'm not capable of it, its counter intuitive. In fact by human standards it could be considered as too forgiving, capricious because it rewards the virtuous and villainous all the same provided there is genuine repentence and remorse.

this generosity is only extended to people who think like you do. its not extended to me.

 

[Robert165]

Kai and Lark. Both of you seem like decent people. And this illustrates my number 2 problem with religion. Religion sperates people. Some people don't care about religious topics, but many people, a very large number of people, feel exactly as I do. They may not be as vocal as I but the dislike and distrust is still the same. So despite having a bad idea at its foundation, christinaity is also a force that seperates people and creates problems.

 

[Lark]

this generosity is only extended to people who think like you do. its not extended to me.

No, what makes you think that?

The "Good News" is exactly that it extends to everyone, I dont know the chapter and verse but most of the letters and acts were taken up with making this point, God had not favourites, all the beliefs about choosen people and most favoured races or tribes or nations, all those things meaning the same thing, were bunk, especially since the choosen people had crucified their own messiah (worst reception ever ).

 

[Lark]

Kai and Lark. Both of you seem like decent people. And this illustrates my number 2 problem with religion. Religion sperates people. Some people don't care about religious topics, but many people, a very large number of people, feel exactly as I do. They may not be as vocal as I but the dislike and distrust is still the same. So despite having a bad idea at its foundation, christinaity is also a force that seperates people and creates problems.

No it doesnt, not properly so, you could as easily say that football is evil because it encourages people to divide and support their local or college or whatever teams.

I welcome your opinions, I'm glad people are around who are vocal. Although I'll confess I hate street preachers and think they're a nuisance most of the time.

 

[Robert165]

No, what makes you think that?

The "Good News" is exactly that it extends to everyone, I dont know the chapter and verse but most of the letters and acts were taken up with making this point, God had not favourites, all the beliefs about choosen people and most favoured races or tribes or nations, all those things meaning the same thing, were bunk, especially since the choosen people had crucified their own messiah (worst reception ever ).

no, see, i dont believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, or how ever you want to put it. so for this simple fact, a belief, I am supposed to go to hell and suffer forever? For what? A belief. And you, you pick the right god so you get to go to heaven and all the rest of us go to hell.

I can't see how I'm either supposed to like that or accept it.




sports dont drive people apart quite the same way religion does......

 

[Owl]

The fairness of prosthelytizing. My religion doesn't do that. It seems with prothelytizing, you have two scenarios:

1. the gospel is important for salvation, and therefore those many, many people who did not know about it for a long time after it was written (pretty much, anyone outside of the Mediterranean for a long time) were unfairly punished because they were ignorant, not by choice, but by place and timing

Have you considered the possibility that they are ignorant by choice?