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INTP and hating religion.

onemoretime

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If you do not allow the explanation for anything religious to be "Because God said so," everything begins to make sense.

Isn't that what it inevitably reduces to, however? That, or some other non-empirical a priori premise?
 

Robert165

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I don't know.

If you look on a very basic level religions very much so follow Darwin's theories; strong ones survive. Is it because of some God-given rules? I really have no idea, and I think it's kind of beside the point.
but why would god design such a capricious, indifferent world? i think its far easier to say that things are the way they are for no other reason than scientific forces, which have no interest in being moralitic or kind. i think assignng all of this to a creator, a designer, is just setting yourself up for some very serious pyschic consequences (assuming you are going to look at things without making exucses).
 

onemoretime

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Can you please explain that statement? I have no idea what you just said.

While the communitarian aspects of religion share commonality with other human group-forming traits, the other aspects, such as dogmatism and social control structures, only derive their logical validity if a person accepts certain first principles. Not only that, but it is impossible to prove these first principles wrong.
 

Haphazard

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but why would god design such a capricious, indifferent world? i think its far easier to say that things are the way they are for no other reason than scientific forces, which have no interest in being moralitic or kind. i think assignng all of this to a creator, a designer, is just setting yourself up for some very serious pyschic consequences (assuming you are going to look at things without making exucses).

Oh, I'm not talking about things like the creation of the universe. I'm looking at things like why people go to church, why people follow Kosher laws, etc.
 

Robert165

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Oh, I'm not talking about things like the creation of the universe. I'm looking at things like why people go to church, why people follow Kosher laws, etc.
those are all explained away by insecurity and need for conformity
 

Haphazard

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While the communitarian aspects of religion share commonality with other human group-forming traits, the other aspects, such as dogmatism and social control structures, only derive their logical validity if a person accepts certain first principles. Not only that, but it is impossible to prove these first principles wrong.

You're still using too many big words, and I thought its purpose was to perpetuate itself, like any good organism.
 

onemoretime

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You're still using too many big words, and I thought its purpose was to perpetuate itself, like any good organism.

If you take the dogma and mystical aspects out of modern religion, it is essentially the same as a tribe, which as you mention, seeks primarily to ensure the survival of subsequent generations. Sports fanbases are much the same. Explaining why one should follow a religion, opposed to following a sports team, requires a person to accept certain things as true, when they're essentially impossible to prove.
 

Haphazard

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If you take the dogma and mystical aspects out of modern religion, it is essentially the same as a tribe, which as you mention, seeks primarily to ensure the survival of subsequent generations. Sports fanbases are much the same. Explaining why one should follow a religion, opposed to following a sports team, requires a person to accept certain things as true, when they're essentially impossible to prove.

I don't know, a lot of religions promise spiritual immortality, which, logically, seems like a better promise than any your sports team is going to give you. It all comes down to whether you think it can make good on that.
 

Robert165

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If you take the dogma and mystical aspects out of modern religion, it is essentially the same as a tribe, which as you mention, seeks primarily to ensure the survival of subsequent generations. Sports fanbases are much the same. Explaining why one should follow a religion, opposed to following a sports team, requires a person to accept certain things as true, when they're essentially impossible to prove.
tribal? heck yes. what could be more tribal than saying you are god's choosen people, or that those who do not worship jesus as you do, or mohhamed, are in danger of eternal punishment......
 

onemoretime

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I don't know, a lot of religions promise spiritual immortality, which, logically, seems like a better promise than any your sports team is going to give you. It all comes down to whether you think it can make good on that.

Whether or not human consciousness survives beyond death is inherently unprovable.
 

Haphazard

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Whether or not human consciousness survives beyond death is inherently unprovable.

So, there you go.

However, whether you wear your lucky socks to a football game makes your team win, well, it's kind of similar in idea, isn't it?
 

Haphazard

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yeah, i dont think htey beleive in hell for unbelievers like the christians do though

I was talking about many translations of Jewish texts refers to Israelites as "tribes of Israel", but yeah, yours is good, too.
 

Robert165

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I was talking about many translations of Jewish texts refers to Israelites as "tribes of Israel", but yeah, yours is good, too.
yeah, even though a bit tribal and totaly barbaric, at least the view of god in the OT is pretty straitforward and non contradictory.
 

onemoretime

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So, there you go.

However, whether you wear your lucky socks to a football game makes your team win, well, it's kind of similar in idea, isn't it?

Yup. At least football riots end in the deaths of only a dozen or so, maximum, and generally don't wreck major infrastructure, like skyscrapers or rapid transit tunnels.
 

Haphazard

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Yup. At least football riots end in the deaths of only a dozen or so, maximum, and generally don't wreck major infrastructure, like skyscrapers or rapid transit tunnels.

If you allow them to supercede religion, they will.
 

onemoretime

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If you allow them to supercede religion, they will.

That's a fairly compelling justification for religion: "without it, people will justify tribal warfare by other means!"

Come on, we already have the nation-state and political ideology for that.
 
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