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Is the truth really so bad?

Oaky

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yeah but the rational side of my mind, the atheist part, is just itching to get you to declare your views on god so that i can deconstruct them and prove them wrong. because, any view on god has to be flawed, since he can not be defined. definng what you can not possibly know is like a red flag to my rational mind.
haha, :) this is of course a trait of the atheists. To try and deconstruct anyones rational reasoning of the existence of God. I'm really not in the mood to write a large wall about it but I may talk about it another time so be sure to be there when it happens.
 

Robert165

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haha, :) this is of course a trait of the atheists. To try and deconstruct anyones rational reasoning of the existence of God. I'm really not in the mood to write a large wall about it but I may talk about it another time so be sure to be there when it happens.

i'm looking forward to it ;)
 

Lark

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If anyone recalls Pascals Wager there is nothing to be gained from a lack of faith but everything to be lost.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Many people, even if they knew that there was no afterlife, would STILL teach their kids that there was one. We REALLY want to lie to them about this. I do not think it is reasonable. Where do you stand on this?

Speculation. How do you know this?

There is no lie because we all don't actually know what happens after we die.

Arguing for the existence of God is just as pointless as trying to disprove the existence of God. You can't rationalize faith anymore than you can soften logic.
 

Lark

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i fail to see how one is supposed to "just believe"

No, I wouldnt expect you to just believe but like they say for those yet to be convinced of a point no evidence will ever be enough for those already convinced no evidence is necessary. So *shrugs*
 

Blackmail!

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Arguing for the existence of God is just as pointless as trying to disprove the existence of God. You can't rationalize faith anymore than you can soften logic.

What is asserted without proof, can be disproven without proof.

(Euclid -> Assertoric atheism)
 

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But I do not think this thread was created to debate whether God existed or not.

Let's go back instead to the real subject:


I spend some time pondering the fact that the vast majority of people on this planet don't actually believe that they are going to die. This is testament to the fact of death being very difficult to cope with. Many of the more rational people I know, those who are not religious generally, find it likely that there is life after death. I think it is about as likely as the sun having a core of ice. The statement itself cannot be made without contradiction.

The two things I credit for this vastly delusional idea of death are that religion keeps the idea of the afterlife in the mainstream, and equally important, we do not learn about death early enough. Many of us, while we are three or four years old, unable to tell what is fantasy and what is not, are told that our goldfish goes to "Goldfish Heaven" which is somewhere in the city's sewer system. We do not recognize death - one certainty on par with gravity - as a reality during the period that we are learning what is and is not real.

Many people, even if they knew that there was no afterlife, would STILL teach their kids that there was one. We REALLY want to lie to them about this. I do not think it is reasonable. Where do you stand on this?

1/ Thinking to death often means thinking to your own death. According to Lacan, thinking to your own death is the ultimate negative ontological experience, the ultimate paralyzing thought, litteraly the un-thinkable.

So most of the time, when they think about death, people transform it into a deliberate abstraction, and hence feel not concerned at all. They constantly elude the subject because it is not thinkable (Cf Heidegger: "Man stirbt...").

---

2/ As an atheist, just like you I see no evidence of an afterlife.
Knowing this, I try to cherish life as much as possible, and not waste my time on vague premises. What is really important is the real world, real people.

And an hour wasted is an hour DEFINITELY wasted.
 
Last edited:

Litvyak

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Retyping and editing something I wrote sometime before. Personally I believe in God. I have thought about it and there is an endless logical loop about it. People stop at one point in this loop forsaking the other side to which they make their conclusion. Anyways, because of this it comes down to other factors. I go into the spiritual aspect which in turn tells me there is a God.
I don't wish to start an argument based on the whole thing because:

1. I know exactly the process in which people think about the whole idea
2. We will get nowhere because people wouldn't comprehend what I say
3. Every point people argue will already be known to me

But there are certain atheistic arguments that are so pathetic they would make me want to bang my head on the wall. Especially the feeler type atheists who try only to use feelings to justify their claims. I understand the point of view of the atheists so arguing with one would be sad on my part as I would know what they would say and mean. If I were to explain why God exists on my part it would take quite a while so I'm not necessarily up for the job right now....

To sum things up, you're saying something like this:

"I think God exists, but I don't want to start a debate, since a) I know every counterargument one could possibly state, and b) people don't understand what I'm saying, since my thoughts are based on a level they can't comprehend. I for one didn't stop on the 'logical loop' they failed to fully explore. Nevertheless, certain atheistic arguments are pathetic. My ideas are so complex that it'd be too much time to explain them."

Way to flatter your ego while evading a possible debate.
I have a feeling that you're terribly full of yourself. No, don't blame it on your type, it has nothing to do with it. I wonder why though, did you invent or discover anything useful? Did you publicize a book? Are you responsible for a scientific breakthrough?

It's kinda strange. Almost theatrical.
 

Robert165

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To sum things up, you're saying something like this:

"I think God exists, but I don't want to start a debate, since a) I know every counterargument one could possibly state, and b) people don't understand what I'm saying, since my thoughts are based on a level they can't comprehend. I for one didn't stop on the 'logical loop' they failed to fully explore. Nevertheless, certain atheistic arguments are pathetic. My ideas are so complex that it'd be too much time to explain them."

Way to flatter your ego while evading a possible debate.
I have a feeling that you're terribly full of yourself. No, don't blame it on your type, it has nothing to do with it. I wonder why though, did you invent or discover anything useful? Did you publicize a book? Are you responsible for a scientific breakthrough?

It's kinda strange. Almost theatrical.
i think he was just trying to say they were his personal views is all......
 

Into It

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As I've stated before on these death and religion threads, if truth=nihilism, then whatever is utilitarian is the only "truth" that matters. Why would it not be "reasonable" to lie to children in this manner if it has utilitarian benefits for the children involved?

Ok, I used the wrong word here. What I meant and really should have said is that I do not think it is necessary. Not even for utilitarian benefit. I really don't know what the hell I was thinking to use the word reasonable.
I don't think that it is necessary to lie in order to console the child. He may not like the thought at first, but I don't think we have to do the Santa Clause thing and figure out that we have been lied to as we begin to use our reason more effectiely. The main effects that I see from this are people going their entire lives accepting building belief structures that allow them to feel they can bypass this truth. I don't mean to sound harsh in saying these things, but as someone who suspends judgment before evidence is presented, the fact that there are so many people that strongly believe that they will continue to live even when they are dead appears to me to border on "mass delusion" and needs to be addressed.

Then you would say as utilitarian ethic, it is not anyone's place to pull the rug out from under someone who did believe this, if it makes them feel better. It may or may not be conducive to long term happiness - I don't really know. But I enjoy the fact that I'm going to die when I compare it to the vexing thought of living forever, good, bad, or neutral. Many people will surely disagree with me on this point, and it is only my personal opinion. I think that it is no different than accepting that you probably won't grow up to be a billionaire, even if you really want that to be your future. I don't think it's harmful, and I'm not sure that a bunch of people living their daily lives thinking that one day they will be billionaires would be such a great thing either. If you accept that that is a highly unlikely outcome, you see that being modestly wealthy is probably good enough. The likely state of things is not awful. That we die is not so bad. We have a bias toward believing consciousness to be more important that other aspects of the universe, but when you realize that this is going to be the case for any reasonable, sentient being, it just sort of makes sense that life begins and ends like everything else. Nobody shivers in horror when they consider the 19th century and earlier just because they were not there to experience it. It wasn't scary when we didn't exist then, and it won't be scary when we don't exist later.

So in short, I do not believe the lie to be useful even from a utilitarian standpoint.


I am going to try to multiquote now.
 

lowtech redneck

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So in short, I do not believe the lie to be useful even from a utilitarian standpoint.

That's the point where we fundamentally disagree; its difficult to debate this issue, as it involves assumptions made about the fundamental aspects of human nature as well as presumptions concerning degrees of relative utility.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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What is asserted without proof, can be disproven without proof.

(Euclid -> Assertoric atheism)

Nope. It can't be asserted and it can't be disproven.


But I am trying to get at the reason that it is commonly viewed as not only moral but absolutely essential to lie to your children....I am not sure that there is any time when one is old enough or mature enough to accept the fact that death is certain, though some are able to mitigate the fear that this thought initially causes. It follows from this belief that there is not a time when we are too young to learn of this.

You do not believe in an afterlife and therefore whomever teaches their children about life after death is lying to them or trying to make the thought of death more palatable to youngsters because they are afraid of death without an afterlife and are deluding themselves into making the unknown less fearful.

Is this a correct interpretation of your post?
 

lowtech redneck

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Truth holds value in itself, even if it happens to be harsh or cruel. I'm all for the red pill, me.

What is the value of "truth" in a nihilistic world? Do you simply wish to maximize your personal happiness at the expense of people who find utility through the belief that one retains conscious existence after death?

In any event, the Matrix example is not equivalent to the question being asked: in that movie, the reality behind the illusion was simply unpleasant, not without hope for the future.
 

Oaky

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To sum things up, you're saying something like this:

"I think God exists, but I don't want to start a debate, since a) I know every counterargument one could possibly state, and b) people don't understand what I'm saying, since my thoughts are based on a level they can't comprehend. I for one didn't stop on the 'logical loop' they failed to fully explore. Nevertheless, certain atheistic arguments are pathetic. My ideas are so complex that it'd be too much time to explain them."

Way to flatter your ego while evading a possible debate.
I have a feeling that you're terribly full of yourself. No, don't blame it on your type, it has nothing to do with it. I wonder why though, did you invent or discover anything useful? Did you publicize a book? Are you responsible for a scientific breakthrough?

It's kinda strange. Almost theatrical.
Look at you getting all riled up because of my beliefs and ideas. People would understand my beliefs if I explained it but it would take time. And yes, I'm thinking of writing a book about it.

When it comes to matters such as religion I won't care about being humble. Don't expect me to take such things lightly. I say it as it is. I do know the counter-arguments and thought processes of the atheists. And that is why it would be useless to argue with me about it, because I know them.
 

Litvyak

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When it comes to matters such as religion I won't care about being humble. Don't expect me to take such things lightly. I say it as it is. I do know the counter-arguments and thought processes of the atheists. And that is why it would be useless to argue with me about it, because I know them.

I don't expect you to "take such things lightly". Think and debate with all the strength of your will and your mind.

But be humble, and don't expect to be prepared for everything people throw at you. You might have won a debate against some atheists in a particular time, but saying the abovementioned things makes you sadly illogical, short-sighted and stuck-up...

... without having done anything that would give a fair explication for your ego. I'm not getting riled up because of your ideas, I'm getting riled up because of your style. Yet again.
 

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Nope. It can't be asserted and it can't be disproven.

Then -if you are correct- I can assert anything I want, and you'll eventually have to prove me I'm wrong.

I claim Santa Claus do exist!
Prove me he doesn't!

---

In the end, you'll have to admit that religion is never a question of logic, but of faith itself. Don't worry, dozens and dozens of philosophers and epistemologists have already thought to the question during the last millenias, and that was their conclusion so far.
Now, faith is an interesting phenomena, not to be overlooked or discarded lightly.
 

Blackmail!

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I don't expect you to "take such things lightly". Think and debate with all the strength of your will and your mind.

But be humble, and don't expect to be prepared for everything people throw at you. You might have won a debate against some atheists in a particular time, but saying the abovementioned things makes you sadly illogical, short-sighted and stuck-up...

... without having done anything that would give a fair explication for your ego. I'm not getting riled up because of your ideas, I'm getting riled up because of your style. Yet again.

Lytviak,


I suggest we should not waste our time on Ragingkatsuki. Either it's a trap designed to create reactions such as yours, either he's a non-interesting egomaniac liar (that wouldn't be the first time he feels frustrated about the real world).

Somehow, he reminds me of a young Adnan Oktar, if you have ever heard of this psychiatric case...
He wants to write a book, he said?

But again the provocative tone he uses might just be an elaborated prank. :D
 
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