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Is your Religion your Race?

Lark

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Jewish school racially discriminated against boy, court rules | Education | guardian.co.uk

I'm surprised at this, the school seems to define Jewishness the same way that the Nazis or neo-Nazis do as a race/ethnicity.

I've always been an opponent of Zionism (which is something different from and other than the state of Israel) from its origins before the wars, in the same way that I dont support ethno-nationalism of any variety such as so called "Ireland for the Irish" or the like.
 

Blackmail!

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I'm surprised at this, the school seems to define Jewishness the same way that the Nazis or neo-Nazis do as a race/ethnicity.

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'm often surprized why anti Zionists seem to be obsessed with Nazis at least as much as they are obsessed with us. :jew:

The absurd comparisons and fallacies they make always end like this : Zionists = Nazis = Evil = (Jews).

The truth is that this school simply defines Jewishness the way it had always been during millenias. Catholics can't understand the purpose or ethos of a non-prozelyte religion, and therefore, find it suspicious. If they don't want to belong to the majority -i.e. convert-, it means they must hide something. But should I reassure our readers if I say that despite its archaisms, the Halakha is NOT a recipe for genocides?
 

Lark

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Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'm often surprized why anti Zionists seem to be obsessed with Nazis at least as much as they are obsessed with us. :jew:

The absurd comparisons and fallacies they make always end like this : Zionists = Nazis = Evil = (Jews).

Er, no, you are making the false associations but then again perhaps you're associating me with people you've met before and its understandable.

I mentioned the Nazis because they would define Jewishness as a racial type or ethnicity rather than a creed or culture, it seems curious that this Jewish school is doing the same thing.

I dont believe that either Zionism, or even Nazism for that matter, are evil per se but they can be but in any case there is no moral equivalence because I dont believe that Zionism has or would encourage genocide in the way that Nazism did. That doesnt stop me believing they are both morally flawed and dubious.
 

Lark

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Zionism = Jews now?

I'm not sure about the way terms are being used here, I was using Zionism to describe the ethno-nationalist movement which Theodor Herzl's "Jewish State" is representative of.

I consider the views of Jewish elements like Russian Communist Bundists who opposed Zionism as divisive and escapist to be the more enlightened point of view.

Although its not entirely the point, if there's been a history in the past of racialisation and discrimination against the Irish, I'd not expect Irish communities to do som kind of u turn and suddenly believe that had been the right thinking thing all along.
 
S

Sniffles

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I'm not sure about the way terms are being used here, I was using Zionism to describe the ethno-nationalist movement which Theodor Herzl's "Jewish State" is representative of.

I consider the views of Jewish elements like Russian Communist Bundists who opposed Zionism as divisive and escapist to be the more enlightened point of view.

Although its not entirely the point, if there's been a history in the past of racialisation and discrimination against the Irish, I'd not expect Irish communities to do som kind of u turn and suddenly believe that had been the right thinking thing all along.

I know what you were talking about. Me and Blackmail! often clash swords just for the hell of it.
 

Haphazard

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I don't understand.

M's mother converted from Catholicism to Judaism under a non-Orthodox authority, meaning the Chief Rabbi does not recognise her as Jewish. He only recognises children as Jewish if he recognises their mothers as Jewish.

It seems to me that the Rabbi takes the manner of the mother's conversion as an issue rather than any sort of "ethnic" discrimination.
 

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Zionism = Jews now?

As Habermas noticed: technically, there is a difference. But practically, there is almost none.
98% of the Jews currently living on this planet are in favour of the existence of Israel (=Zionists).

This doesn't mean they all want to migrate there (I don't want to), or that they all agree with the current policies of this state (I don't).

---

Today, when somebody wants to express anti-Semitic feelings (especially when he's not aware they are anti-Semitic), he will most of the time use the term "anti-Zionism" as a disguise, or as a way to relieve his likely guilt.

While you could still perceive a political ambiguity behind the term, it disappeared when Lark decided to nazify the Jews: indeed, it is a classic anti-Semitic cliché.
 
S

Sniffles

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As Habermas noticed: technically, there is a difference. But practically, there is almost none.
98% of the Jews currently living in this planet are in favour of the existence of Israel (=Zionists).

I can understand that. I also understand how many people disguise anti-Semitism under Anti-Zionism. However, too often criticism of Israel is misinterpreted as Anti-Semitism.

While you could still perceive a political ambiguity behind the term, it disappeared when Lark decided to nazify the Jews: indeed, it is a classic anti-Semitic cliché.

I don't know if it's really specific to anti-semitism. Basically nowadays when you oppose something you try to compare it to Nazism. Rather tiresome I know, but sadly that's how it is.

En garde mon ami! :duel:
As they say here: IT'S ON!
 

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I consider the views of Jewish elements like Russian Communist Bundists who opposed Zionism as divisive and escapist to be the more enlightened point of view.

Have you noticed that 90% of the so-called "Bundists" have been turned to ashes by the Nazis?

So do you really think that practically, they were right, and that every Jew should have followed their ideological crusade?

It's wonderful to be an idealist (especially when you want to force others to be idealists too), but sometimes, you have to consider the real world instead.

The Bund was a tragic political failure. No wonder you like Jews this way: a good Jew is a dead Jew.

---

You know, I may not like the concept of nation-state, and find it morally flawed too, but practically, there are no better ways to guarantee the survival of an entire people. If you find another viable alternative, please, share it with us! And remember it's always easier to pretend the concept of nation-state is flawed when your life is not threatened, when for instance you're not Tibetan nor Kurdish. You may despise your own nation-state (Ireland), but believe me, nation-states are also useful -at least sometimes-.

I will always wonder why so many people are obsessed to specifically compel Jews to behave more ethically than any other nation on Earth.
 

Fidelia

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Where I come from, there are a lot of Mennonite Germans. This is another example of a religion which is also a culture/ethnicity even though it isn't. Even for those who have long ago left the religion and tried to distance themselves from the culture, they still have many characteristics in common that are difficult to get away from: physical features, value placed on music, strong emphasis on social justice, reaction to harsh/black and white treatment within the church/community/family, idiosyncracies in speech. Even for those who no longer are Mennonite, they still are unmistakeably Mennonite!
 
S

Sniffles

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Religion and ethnicity has always had close ties, and probably always will Fidelia. Community has always played an important role in religious life, and in turn the religion helps bind the community together. Even within a secular context you need a "civil religion" to help keep society together.
 

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However, too often criticism of Israel is misinterpreted as Anti-Semitism.

Absolutely.

You know the fable of the Boy Who Cried Wolf?

But in the end, the Wolf really comes.
 

Haphazard

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Okay, so there are two ways for him to be Jewish: to have a Jewish mother and to go through formal conversion.

Apparently for this rabbi, the mother's conversion was not formal enough so therefore the mother is not Jewish and therefore the kid isn't Jewish.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how this is ethnic discrimination. It has to do with the validity of the conversion, not anything with the mother's genetic line. I mean, I have a feeling that I wouldn't be allowed into this school because I'm not "Jewish" enough, even though I have a Jewish mother and her mother had a Jewish mother, and her mother had a Jewish mother, and on and on as far as anyone can trace, because my family practices Judaism the same way many Christians practice Christianity here: only setting foot in a house of worship about two times a year.
 

Lark

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As Habermas noticed: technically, there is a difference. But practically, there is almost none.
98% of the Jews currently living in this planet are in favour of the existence of Israel (=Zionists).

This doesn't mean they all want to migrate there (I don't want to), or that they all agree with the current policies of this state (I don't).

---

Today, when somebody wants to express anti Semitic feelings (especially when he's not aware they are anti Semitic), he will most of the time use the term "anti Zionism" as a disguise, or as a way to relieve his likely guilt.

While you could still perceive a political ambiguity behind the term, it disappeared when Lark decided to nazify the Jews: indeed, it is a classic anti-Semitic cliché.

Wait, what? I wasnt nazifying anyone? Infact what is that and what does it entail?

I think that a lot of the arguments about the state of Israel are bogus, I remember seeing a book are article which was entitled "Israel really exists" or something like that, too often the arguments over the state of Israel are abstract or ridiculous, whatever its origins or current policies, its there, its a success, it would be like someone taking Scotland or Enlgand to task because of the fate of the Picts.

On the other hand I think Zionism is different, at its heart is the idea that Jews are a people or a race apart which dont belong any place but Israel, I dont really so how its so popular, especially with Jewish people.
 
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