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The nature of God

Nyx

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Free will is an illusion, humans have set boundaries that cannot be broken. Our desicions are finite and we cannot be more than what we are, a human. Good and evil is only a perception in a individual. Good exist as morale values that promotes order which promotes human preservation, everything that break this values are consider evil. Humans are uncomfortable with the unknown and as a result created the idea of god to explain those that cannot be explained. God is a human creation which stem from the fear of the unknown.

However, I believe there are higher lifeforms, but they probably could care less if Earth and every species on it are wiped out.

This type of philosophy is self-destructive. If you assert this you should take no confidence that any of your observations or thoughts on this matter are true... along with anything else. Thus is the destructive belief in purely relativism.



"Materialists and madmen never have doubts."


"[...] But the case is even stronger, and the parallel with madness is yet more strange. For it was our case against exhaustive and logical theory of the lunatic that, right or wrong, it gradually destroyed his humanity. Now it is the charge against the main deductions of the materialist that, right or wrong, they gradually destroy his humanity; I do not mean only kindness, I mean hope, courage, poetry, initiative, all that is human. For instance, when materialism leads men to complete fatalism (as it generally does), it is quite idle to pretend that is is in any sense a liberating force. It is absurd to say that you are especially advancing freedom when you only use free thought to destroy free will. The determinists come to bind, not to loose. They may well call their law the "chain" of causation. It is the worst chain that ever fettered a human being. You may use the language of liberty, if you life, about materialistic teaching, but it is obvious that this is just as inapplicable to it as a whole as the same language when applied to a man locked up in a madhouse. You may say, if you life, that the man is free to think himself a poached egg. But it is surely a more massive and important fact that if he is a poached eff he is not free to eat, drink, sleep, walk, or smoke a cigarette. Simiarly you may say, if you life, that the bold determinist speculator is free to disbelieve in the reality of the will. But it is a much more massive and important fact that he is not free to raise, to curse, to think, to justify, to urge to punish, to resist temptations, to incite mobs, to make New Year resolutions, to pardon sinners, to rebuke tryants,m or even to say "thank you" for the mustard."

In passing from this subject I may note that there is a queer fallacy to the effect that materialistic fatalism is in some way favorable to mercy, to the abolition of cruel punishment or punishments of any kind. This is startlingly the reverse of the truth."

"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."

-- G.K. Chesterton

How very true this is, and self evident throughout history. Many of the worst governments in history subscribed to the philosophy of the determinist and the relativist... and people still wonder about the state of affairs in the world. This is why indoctrinating and propagating this mind set by governments has been successful in destroying freedom and enslaving the planet... evident from proponents of Communism right up to the "Century of the Self" and the culture of "Me" and the arrogance of the individual and Self worship. It is sheer propaganda and the world bought right into it, in doing so surrendering their freedom: the ability of their rational minds.
 

Owl

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Well, the angels are quite different than humans. Angels since their Creation existed with God in Heaven and consequently, their Free Will is under much different conditions... they are not as free as we are in a sense. I believe this is why God loved us above all else, we have the hardest struggle to know Him, and when we find it, it is a much greater feat than that of the plight of the angels. Saints in heaven are human, and I believe sin is a problem of humans which goes back to the theology (not fundamentalist lunacy) of the Fall. Satan is an interesting character in this story, widely misunderstood. We are struggling to know God our Creator. Everyone has free will under God. God did not directly create Evil and it is not a separate force battling with God (nothing can "battle" God). God wills things to happen and his created beings' Free Will under His ultimate Will charts the course of humanity and the universe. We choose where we go... proving the ultimate necessity of sin for the human story.

Is sin necessary because we are free, or is sin necessary because all things, including human free will (and angelic free will?) is subject to the ultimate Will of God?

Mmmmm, Nay.

I can't know the mind of a God, unless of course I created him in mine. God is free, but he is not cheap....unless I buy the Reader's Digest version that has been on the shelf for centuries. Angles who have not sinned? I don't want some goody-goody angel who has no idea what I'm going through. I prefer to think of angelic status as earned somehow...Saints? Good people, great people....nominated by who? Not any God I'm familiar with.

Sin is not evil. Sin is missing the mark; trying but failing in the attempt, being human. Evil is something else; the deliberate breaking of the law for personal gratification.

Is to be good to not sin or commit evil acts? A person could be born who, without knowledge of a god may not ever bring sin or evil to this sphere yet has not left any tangible good behind either, someone simply benign, a place holder.

All believers should at least obey the Law. But to just do that and nothing else...sounds to me like missing the mark. If a spark of the divine, a fragment of this God lives in each of us...then it is what we do with that gift that rends and tears at God's essential being. We debase a God or enhance a God with our deliberate actions...we cannot help but do this as we are part of God's deliberate creative act; a fragment of divine thought. It's the ultimate sustainability issue...

Do you think that suffering will persist aveternally? I ask because if sin isn't evil, and sin is a result of being human, then sin will exist so long as we're human. (I'm assuming here that our identity is tied to our being human.) But if sin will always be with us, and suffering is a result of sin, then we'll be aveternally suffering.

Also, do you think God will judge people negatively for sinning?

I still don't see how, based on what you've written, free will is sufficient to explain the existence of evil. Why can't we freely, deliberately follow principles of beneficence and non-maleficence?
 

forzen

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This type of philosophy is self-destructive. If you assert this you should take no confidence that any of your observations or thoughts on that matter are true.

I'm confident in my observations, but i'm also aware that these observations are mine alone. My perceptions are nothing but my opinions I have gathered through living. God is an abstract idea, therefore without proper evidence, i have concluded that it is faulty to consider his existance.

The feelings of benovelence can stem from any variables, its a feeling similar to being inspired and could be caused by a number of things which a person values. I have was raised a Christian, but I do not beleive I have fallen as I still follow the morale values which I was taught. The reasons i have explained in my previous post.

If god vanished me to hell because of my doubt, I have no other to blame but myself. However, I will be true to my values and believe on what i feel even if it cost me God's wrath.
 

Nyx

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I'm confident in my observations, but i'm also aware that these observations are mine alone. My perceptions are nothing but my opinions I have gathered through living. God is an abstract idea, therefore without proper evidence, i have concluded that it is faulty to consider his existance.

The feelings of benovelence can stem from any variables, its a feeling similar to being inspired and could be caused by a number of things which a person values. I have was raised a Christian, but I do not beleive I have fallen as I still follow the morale values which I was taught. The reasons i have explained in my previous post.

If god vanished me to hell because of my doubt, I have no other to blame but myself. However, I will be true to my values and believe on what i feel even if it cost me God's wrath.

Read my edited post. I believe the last part of your post is classic human arrogance. I do not say this to offend you because everyone takes part in it. We are arrogant because we believe we have something, however we constantly forget who gave it to us... thus we abuse it.
 

forzen

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Read my edited post. I believe the last part of your post is classic human arrogance. I do not say this to offend you because everyone takes part in it. We are arrogant because we believe we have something, however we constantly forget who gave it to us... thus we abuse it.

I don't believe we have anything, we are human nothing less nothing more. However, in my opinion it's very arrogant to state that we are created in God's image, that we are entitle to grow slaughter farms for animals so we don't have to hunt. The arrogance is to think that we are unique snowflake in this planet and deserve to rule it as we please.

And given enough time, we might extend that arrogance to the rest of the universe.
 

Nyx

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Is sin necessary because we are free, or is sin necessary because all things, including human free will (and angelic free will?) is subject to the ultimate Will of God?



Do you think that suffering will persist aveternally? I ask because if sin isn't evil, and sin is a result of being human, then sin will exist so long as we're human. (I'm assuming here that our identity is tied to our being human.) But if sin will always be with us, and suffering is a result of sin, then we'll be aveternally suffering.

Also, do you think God will judge people negatively for sinning?

I still don't see how, based on what you've written, free will is sufficient to explain the existence of evil. Why can't we freely, deliberately follow principles of beneficence and non-maleficence?

I'm try to respond to all your questions.

As humans our mental powers are limited because of our state as being a fusion of the material and immaterial. We don't freely follow principles of beneficence and maleficence because we inherently are self serving and have a tendency to be ungrateful for the awesome gifts of God. This is the human condition and part of the theology of the Fall. All evil is, is the this tendency to Self serve, going against the Will of God which is to GIVE. God did the ultimate giving... you could say God IS giving. God IS one of the many elements of his Creation is pure giving. We have this godly nature in us, but also temptations because of our existential condition. By overcoming the obsession with temporal pleasures (though not inherently bad, but made bad through our intentions) we become worthy of God. This is a loaded statement... is anyone worthy of God? No, but that does not matter to God, it is all about recognizing the gift of Creation. To answer your first question, the answer is kind of both. Because we are made in the image of God and because of our condition we are very likely to fall into the trap of thinking WE are Gods, that WE alone can arrive at ultimate Truth, that WE can take the place of God. To combat this we see the story of Satan, and how that is mirrored in the human condition so much. No one is battling God, but He used the outcome of Free Will in this case to chart the destiny of humanity. In other words, we are like God because of our intellect, but we cannot be God because we would not exist if we were God. Christianity is based of the idea of reciprocal relationships because that is the relationship God has with his Creation. When we realize this and strive to be like Christ (the God-man) we attain salvation because we are being like Christ who is God. We have chosen very little in the way of our existence... we did not CHOOSE to be born. No one chooses to be born, we are given the gift of Life, and that is why there is male and female... to mirror the relationship between God and His creation.
 

Nyx

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I don't believe we have anything, we are human nothing less nothing more. However, in my opinion it's very arrogant to state that we are created in God's image, that we are entitle to grow slaughter farms for animals so we don't have to hunt. The arrogance is to think that we are unique snowflake in this planet and deserve to rule it as we please.

We are human, nothing less, nothing more? That is self destructive thinking. The fact that anything exists and that we can partake in creation is in itself a contemplation for life. We are unique and so is everything that has ever been created... but that does not preclude objective Truth which is where we find God. You cannot judge the actions of selfish people and their creation of slaughterhouses for they are ignorant of their condition. We are made in his image meaning we have an intellect, albeit infinitely below His.
 

forzen

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We are human, nothing less, nothing more? That is self destructive thinking. The fact that anything exists and that we can partake in creation is in itself a contemplation for life. We are unique and so is everything that has ever been created... but that does not preclude objective Truth which is where we find God. You cannot judge the actions of selfish people and their creation of slaughterhouses for they are ignorant of their condition. We are made in his image meaning we have an intellect, albeit infinitely below His.

And how would you know we were created in his image? We are only unique because we think we are.

Intelligence is questionable we haven't had a benchmark to measure of how intelligence we are besides another human. I bet those lions in Africa are given each other high fives for being on top of the food chain. We are a tiny dot in the universe. I'm assuming here that if the Earth is the Universe, we would be the god of it. So in comparason, a culture of bacteria would be comparable to humans and we hardly care about bacteria unless it's affecting us, then we try to kill it.
 

Nyx

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And how would you know we were created in his image? We are only unique because we think we are.

Intelligence is questionable we haven't had a benchmark to measure of how intelligence we are besides another human. I bet those lions in Africa are given each other high fives for being on top of the food chain. We are a tiny dot in the universe. I'm assuming here that if the Earth is the Universe, we would be the god of it. So in comparason, a culture of bacteria would be comparable to humans and we hardly care about bacteria unless it's affecting us, then we try to kill it.

That is circular reasoning.

Also, a big universe neither proves or disproves anything. If anything, it is a look into God's mind from where we stand as humans. A careful study of theology puts to rest any of these objections.

That mentality of "it's affecting me let's kill it" is a major problem of the human condition and would be eliminated if we stopped being our own gods.
 

forzen

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That is circular reasoning.

Also, a big universe neither proves or disproves anything. If anything, it is a look into God's mind from where we stand as humans. A careful study of theology puts to rest any of these objections.

That mentality of "it's affecting me let's kill it" is a major problem of the human condition and would be eliminated if we stopped being our own gods.

I'll agree on the universe and where we stand as humans in God's mind. However, i have other priorities to content with that would not let me study theology. So with that said, i'll step down from this debate as I don't have enough knowledge in that area.
 

Owl

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I'm try to respond to all your questions.

As humans our mental powers are limited because of our state as being a fusion of the material and immaterial. We don't freely follow principles of beneficence and maleficence because we inherently are self serving and have a tendency to be ungrateful for the awesome gifts of God. This is the human condition and part of the theology of the Fall. All evil is, is the this tendency to Self serve, going against the Will of God which is to GIVE. God did the ultimate giving... you could say God IS giving. God IS one of the many elements of his Creation is pure giving. We have this godly nature in us, but also temptations because of our existential condition. By overcoming the obsession with temporal pleasures (though not inherently bad, but made bad through our intentions) we become worthy of God. This is a loaded statement... is anyone worthy of God? No, but that does not matter to God, it is all about recognizing the gift of Creation. To answer your first question, the answer is kind of both. Because we are made in the image of God and because of our condition we are very likely to fall into the trap of thinking WE are Gods, that WE alone can arrive at ultimate Truth, that WE can take the place of God. To combat this we see the story of Satan, and how that is mirrored in the human condition so much. No one is battling God, but He used the outcome of Free Will in this case to chart the destiny of humanity. In other words, we are like God because of our intellect, but we cannot be God because we would not exist if we were God. Christianity is based of the idea of reciprocal relationships because that is the relationship God has with his Creation. When we realize this and strive to be like Christ (the God-man) we attain salvation because we are being like Christ who is God. We have chosen very little in the way of our existence... we did not CHOOSE to be born. No one chooses to be born, we are given the gift of Life, and that is why there is male and female... to mirror the relationship between God and His creation.

Why, because of our condition, are we very likely to fall into this trap? What is it about our condition that causes us to fall into this trap?

Is it our finiteness? If we fell into this trap because of our finiteness, because we simply weren't smart enough to know the truth, then how would it be just of God to hold us accountable for knowing a truth that is beyond our finite, cognitive ability to know? In other words, how is our unbelief morally culpable if our finite minds couldn't generate the belief we were being held responsible for believing even if we were using that finite mind in the attempt to discover the truth, i.e., we couldn't know the truth even if we wanted to know the truth, because the truth is beyond our finite minds' ability to discover truth? Worse, it seems on this schema our finite minds could generate false beliefs in the pursuit of truth.

Is it because of the fall? Even if it were, then how did our first parents fall such that we could inherit original sin. (And then, if you can answer that, can you explain how we inherit original sin?)
 

simulatedworld

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If God is good then why does he allow innocent suffering and natural evils?

Well you see Beat, the great thing about faith is that it circumvents the need for logical explanation. You can explain away literally anything you can imagine with, "Have more faith! God is great and we can't understand his divine reasons for creating things like Down's Syndrome because we're just lowly humans--but they're benevolent, trust me!"

If God is all knowing and cannot intervene he is not all powerful. If he is all powerful and all knowing, and does not intervene then he is not all good.

The explanation here is typically that he's actually doing something good by failing to intervene, and that we humans are just too stupid to understand the real reason and see why innocent suffering is somehow actually good, so we should just go with it on faith. :D

It's all part of GOD'S PLAN, doncha know?

If there's a God, then he's obviously indifferent or a bit of a sadist.
Thoughts?

Again you're supposed to just assume that your perception of these evils as evil is mistaken and that it's somehow actually a good thing because it's part of God's Great Plan that you as a human are incapable of understanding. Trust me.

"Why did God let [x bad thing] happen to innocent people?"

"Well, I'm sure he has his reasons. I don't have a clue what they are, but I'm sure he does, so I'm just going to assume this was a good thing."

Again faith circumvents the need for logical explanation.
 

Venom

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This type of philosophy is self-destructive. If you assert this you should take no confidence that any of your observations or thoughts on this matter are true... along with anything else. Thus is the destructive belief in purely relativism.

Conservative relativism works alright: support what is current simply for solidarity of culture, not because its any sort of "truth". Its much easier to argue this than whatever fundamentalist derived religious rules (because then you dont have to "prove" your religious values).

How very true this is, and self evident throughout history. Many of the worst governments in history subscribed to the philosophy of the determinist and the relativist... and people still wonder about the state of affairs in the world. This is why indoctrinating and propagating this mind set by governments has been successful in destroying freedom and enslaving the planet... evident from proponents of Communism right up to the "Century of the Self" and the culture of "Me" and the arrogance of the individual and Self worship. It is sheer propaganda and the world bought right into it, in doing so surrendering their freedom: the ability of their rational minds.

Secular and Religious governments seem to be irrelevant to all of this, because you cant legislate cultural change...the governments values cannot be legislated into the people's culture (though the government can enforce its values on the people).

Secondly, please dont do the "atheist governments were evil solely because they were atheist". You used the words "determinist" and "relativist", but we both know thats not what you meant. Depending on your philosophy, determinism may not even limit free will. And what government is really relativist? Its much more likely that you are mad at governments build on utilitarianism, rather than pure relativism. Back to the "atheist government" issue: Hitler was religious and into various occult ideas, while the Chinese Communists were firmly not. The correlation just doesnt hold for irreligious being the sole factor of immorality. A religious government doesn't inherently guarantee freedom and a non-religious one doesn't inherently deny it.

The general materialistic culture probably has more roots in religion and Christianity:
--america's protestant work ethic and material success
--prosperity theology among protestants
(its obviously a lot more complicated than these two ideas)
 

simulatedworld

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I find that relativism is only "destructive" to people who are very deeply emotionally attached to the idea that their conceptions of morality are somehow objective and can't handle suggestions to the contrary. ;)
 

Venom

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I find that relativism is only "destructive" to people who are very deeply emotionally attached to the idea that their conceptions of morality are somehow objective and can't handle suggestions to the contrary. ;)

one of the great things about kant: metaphysical a priori will pretty much only be true "for you"... I would guess that most things that are "objectively" moral fall under a priori synthetic. So this would mean that people who want "objective morality" can have it...but they wont ever be able to "prove" it to someone else.
I think those who still wish to prove metaphysical a priori to others are those you speak of...
 

Nyx

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I am well aware of Hitler's occult interest... and by definition asserts gnosis, or becoming God.

I would continue to answer objections here, but I will stop because doing so would take countless volumes and I simply do not have the time to do so. Also, I do not think anything I will say we be taken with any consideration and will be rejected immediately, consciously or subconsciously.

Unfortunately, some people will never see the light and live their lives in a vain attempt at affirming their personal truth as the answer, but what they do not realize is their logic is self-destructive. They are living in limbo, trying to reconcile their innate desire for Truth with their personal fatalistic beliefs.

EDIT: No, those people are not trying to "prove" metaphysical a priori. Proof is a product of human arrogance in regards to that... Proof is only useful and applicable in fields of empiric knowledge.
 

simulatedworld

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one of the great things about kant: metaphysical a priori will pretty much only be true "for you"... I would guess that most things that are "objectively" moral fall under a priori synthetic. So this would mean that people who want "objective morality" can have it...but they wont ever be able to "prove" it to someone else.
I think those who still wish to prove metaphysical a priori to others are those you speak of...

Well in that case, it's by definition not objective, if it can't be proven or shown objectively to anyone else.
 

simulatedworld

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Unfortunately, some people will never see the light and live their lives in a vain attempt at affirming their personal truth as the answer

Well God forbid anybody do that!
 

Nyx

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Objectively is claimed of Truth because it comes from God... who is truly the only intellect that exists that is objective.
 

simulatedworld

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Objectively is claimed of Truth because it comes from God... who is truly the only intellect that exists that is objective.

Okay, now show me objectively that your idea of God actually reflects reality.
 
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