for those against abortion

[mockingbird]

There are rare casses where a mother's life is put in danger by her pregnancy, yes. Are we to then justify abortion for everyone else based on these rare cases? I may have to shoot someone out of self defense, but this doesn't make it OK to shoot any one for any other reason, does it?

My arguement against abortion is that we must preserve human life. All human life. When it comes down to a life or death situation I can see how the woman should be given a concession to terminate the pregnancy. Her life and the child's life are equally important. I think, though, that if we as a culture accepted the full personhood of the unborn, a lot more women than you might think would opt to risk their lives for their children. I know that I would.

 

[Haphazard]

I think, though, that if we as a culture accepted the full personhood of the unborn, a lot more women than you might think would opt to risk their lives for their children. I know that I would.

America has a great mix of cultures. Are you suggesting forcing this belief onto others who do not or perhaps cannot accept the "unborn" as having full personhood, due to cultural or religious beliefs?

 

[mockingbird]

America has a great mix of cultures. Are you suggesting forcing this belief onto others who do not or perhaps cannot accept the "unborn" as having full personhood, due to cultural or religious beliefs?

Are you suggesting that millions of unborn should be sacrificed due to the beleifs of a narcissistic culture?

I would also like to add that the only reason at all that you place value on the individual rights of a person at all is due to the influence on Western culture by the Judeo-Christian ethic. You are attempting to devalue a life based on the idea that an individual is valuable. You can't do that. If the woman has any value at all it is because human life is inhearently valuable.

 

[Haphazard]

Are you suggesting that millions of unborn should be sacrificed due to the beleifs of a narcissistic culture?

I would also like to add that the only reason at all that you place value on the individual rights of a person at all is due to the influence on Western culture by the Judeo-Christian ethic. You are attempting to devalue a life based on the idea that an individual is valuable. You can't do that. If the woman has any value at all it is because human life is inhearently valuable.

The idea that life is inherently valuable at all is a modern value.

Judaism believes that a fetus is not a person until it's 1) at least halfway out of the womb 2) takes its first breath. Then again, Jews have always been considered babykillers, so this just confirms it for you, doesn't it?

 

[mockingbird]

The idea that life is inherently valuable at all is a modern value.

Judaism believes that a fetus is not a person until it's 1) at least halfway out of the womb 2) takes its first breath. Then again, Jews have always been considered babykillers, so this just confirms it for you, doesn't it?

Modern values are extensively influenced by Christian values.

I'm not an expert on Judaism but I feel the information you are giving me is highly suspect. Also, I don't see why you are attacking me for being anti-Semitic.

 

[Haphazard]

Modern values are extensively influenced by Christian values.

I'm not an expert on Judaism but I feel the information you are giving me is highly suspect. Also, I don't see why you are attacking me for being anti-Semitic.

Jewish beliefs about abortion

It's not that Jews don't value a fetus it's just that what you're saying that a fetus has all rights as a person and of equal value as the woman's is a false premise for, well, a significant number of people.

As I said. If you want to prevent abortions, improve conditions for women with unwanted pregnancies. Even if you get rid of legal abortions, women will still go to shady clinics or try it themselves in their bathrooms. Greed is a stronger motivator than fear.

 

[mockingbird]

Jewish beliefs about abortion

It's not that Jews don't value a fetus it's just that what you're saying that a fetus has all rights as a person and of equal value as the woman's is a false premise for, well, a significant number of people.

As I said. If you want to prevent abortions, improve conditions for women with unwanted pregnancies. Even if you get rid of legal abortions, women will still go to shady clinics or try it themselves in their bathrooms. Greed is a stronger motivator than fear.

I agree with you here wholeheartedly. This doesn't change the fact that laws should protect the innocent and defenseless.

Throughout this discussion, though, I have been disgusted by the lack of reverence and respect towards an innocent life, even going so far as to call them malignant parasites. If this is how they veiw a human in the beginning stages of life, then how on earth are they going to justify valuing a woman who began life the same way? It is a fair question. Is an individual human life sacred or not? And if so, then, why?

Thank you for sharing this information with me. I will check it out.

 

[Haphazard]

[/B]

I agree with you here wholeheartedly. This doesn't change the fact that laws should protect the innocent and defenseless.

Throughout this discussion, though, I have been disgusted by the lack of reverence and respect towards an innocent life, even going so far as to call them malignant parasites. If this is how they veiw a human in the beginning stages of life, then how on earth are they going to justify valuing a woman who began life the same way? It is a fair question. Is an individual human life sacred or not? And if so, then, why?

Thank you for sharing this information with me. I will check it out.

Lack of respect for babies/children is becoming a cultural value. This is because babies/children are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with in modern society because it's no longer based with them in mind.

Jew's views of abortions:

1. Does the fetus have the same rights as the mother? No.

2. Should women have access to abortions without interference of the government? Yes (conservative/reform), No (orthodox)

3. Should you have an abortion? Ask the rabbi, dear.

 

[MacGuffin]

Someday birth control will be 100% effective and available to all.

Then abortion will become a thing of the past.

 

[mockingbird]

Lack of respect for babies/children is becoming a cultural value. This is because babies/children are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with in modern society because it's no longer based with them in mind.

These values can be changed. African slaves were considered less than human because Americans had created a system dependant on slave labor. The slaves were considered less than human because Americans needed a justification to continue their way of life. You may not agree with me that a fetus is a person, but I don't see how anyone could dissagree with me that the values of a culture must at times be challenged. And when they are challenged, they are often changed.

Jew's views of abortions:

1. Does the fetus have the same rights as the mother? No.

2. Should women have access to abortions without interference of the government? Yes (conservative/reform), No (orthodox)

3. Should you have an abortion? Ask the rabbi, dear.

 

[Totenkindly]

Someday birth control will be 100% effective and available to all. Then abortion will become a thing of the past.

I never took you for an idealist.

... for example, what about "user error"?

Jewish beliefs about abortion

Good page, and you've tied into my earlier note about the one punishment for a man who forced a woman to miscarry... it was punished by Jewish law, but not as a murder.

There's also a page there tracks the general Christian beliefs (quoting various authorities from each time period) about abortion, and yes, it's interesting to see how the generally accepted beliefs fluctuate over time. Today's "Christian" valueset is just one in a chain of valuesets that Christianity has espoused.

Historical abortion beliefs of the Christian church

 

[MacGuffin]

I never took you for an idealist.

... for example, what about "user error"?

That's not 100%.

 

[Sniffles]

There's also a page there tracks the general Christian beliefs (quoting various authorities from each time period) about abortion, and yes, it's interesting to see how the generally accepted beliefs fluctuate over time. Today's "Christian" valueset is just one in a chain of valuesets that Christianity has espoused.

Historical abortion beliefs of the Christian church

The only thing that's really fluctuated is whether or not the fetus has a soul(which was largely based on the scientific data at the time), and whether killing it constitutes murder per se. Nevertheless, Christianity has consistently upheld abortion to be wrong.

 

[Totenkindly]

The only thing that's really fluctuated is whether or not the fetus has a soul(which was largely based on the scientific data at the time), and whether killing it constitutes murder per se. Nevertheless, Christianity has consistently upheld abortion to be wrong.

Fixed.

So you're saying the institution of the Church doesn't really consider abortion wrong because it's murder, it's for some other reason?

 

[Sniffles]

Fixed.

So you're saying the institution of the Church doesn't really consider abortion wrong because it's murder, it's for some other reason?

I think this sums it up:

"The early period of Christianity established a firm and consistent opposition to abortion. Later periods were faithful to this tradition despite continuing attempts on the part of various ecclesiastical writers to find an exception to the church's condemnation of direct abortion in every instance. The Church did not always regard all abortion as simple homicide, however, although it regarded the abortion of an unformed or unanimated fetus (if there were such a thing) as anticipated homicide or homicide by intent because it always involved the destruction of a future human being. The distinctions between true homicide and quasi-homicide, and formed and unformed fetus had practical significance only with respect to legal classification and the grading of penances relative to the reconciliation of sinners.

The pronouncements by modern popes on the subject of abortion omit these obsolete distinctions. Hence, their opposition to abortion may appear more definitive and unqualified than statements made by earlier popes. Nonetheless, the Church's moral teaching that abortion is always a grave evil has remained intact throughout history."


Catholic Culture : Library : The Roman Catholic Church and Abortion: An Historical Perspective - Part II

A direct parallel can be said to exist in many legal systems today; where even if abortion is legal, illegal acts that result in the death of a fetus are still punishable. The question is what specific crime are you charged with.

The issue in question is not whether abortion is evil or not, but what is the exact nature of its evil.

 

[Lateralus]

Someday birth control will be 100% effective and available to all.

Then abortion will become a thing of the past.

No it won't. People will always find a way to screw it up.

 

[The Decline]

I find this discussion to be rather speciesist. Shall I dig myself a grave by admitting that I think it's rather anthropocentric to value the life of about a million fetuses killed annually due to abortions in America, and not blink an eye at the 27 million animals raised and also killed prematurely every day, purely to feed Americans?

I think I shall. Does having a neocortex and the ability to express ourselves culturally in advanced ways really give us the right to blindly value our own species alone?

 

[Take Five]

Being human doesn't exempt us from the food chain. Humans are, however, a species set apart from the rest in terms of value.

 

[The Decline]

Being human doesn't exempt us from the food chain.

If I'm not mistaken, homo sapiens have a choice when it comes to diet, especially when it comes to excessive protein consumption and the raising and killing of livestock premature to them ever living a fulfilling existence.

Humans are, however, a species set apart from the rest in terms of value.

Anthropocentrism (from Greek: άνθρωπος, anthropos, "human being"; and κέντρον, kentron, "center") or anthrocentrism is the belief that humans must be considered at the center of, and above any other aspect of, reality.

 

[Amargith]

Being human doesn't exempt us from the food chain. Humans are, however, a species set apart from the rest in terms of value.

You're right (at least in the bolded part). That also means being part of that cycle when it comes to not being the predator, when we are the 'weak'. Granted, we'll fight for survival as will any other organism. But our death is just as natural as any other animal's. We're not extra special. We're part of nature, of life *and* death. The fact that we have no qualms aborting other animals when we scream murder when it happens to our own...odd, to say the least. Especially coz we cannot even ask those animals what they would like done to them. We just do it.