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for those against abortion

Grayscale

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Sex can be done for recreation rather than procreation. Just because a woman has sex doesn't mean that she consented to rent her body out for nine months.

when you drive an automobile, you are accepting the risk of an accident. clearly this is the fault of roads, cars, etc.? it is to say otherwise that is naive and foolish, and the chances of conception are much greater than your chance of getting into an accident.

Then would you argue that a carrot is a person? An adult has many qualities which are not present in a fetus.
...
Everyone is a potential pensioner. But we don't give everyone money until they actually become one.

Only applies if you forgo natural order... there is nothing natural about abortion. Left unaffected, a fetus will almost always grow into a human, a carrot will not. At least, most of the time. :happy2:

carrot%20top.jpg
 

ayoitsStepho

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Yup. Simplest solution would be all females across the world to get the piece of plastic in their arm so they can't have kids for 3 years. 99.99% effective.


The argument against abortion is interesting. While abortion may not be right, how is it morally any different than taking birth control drugs? BC hormones just make the uterus an environment where babies can't survive.

Actually, I dont agree with the use of birth control either. Just to point that out ;)
 

nynesneg

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Well then Stepho, I definitely respect that you keep consistency with your argument. ;)

Waiting with baited breath to hear everyone else's opinion.
 

ayoitsStepho

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If you eat at at restaurant, there is the possibility that you will get food poisoning. But does that mean you consented to it?

But sex is made to reproduce, so if you have sex you should at least realise that you can very well have a baby if you do exacally what it takes to reproduce.
 

simulatedworld

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Exacally my point. If they had to redo it, they wouldnt be put in the situation to begin with. But if you want to talk about whether or not the person would give birth or abort if they had to choose, why not give birth if they already did the abortion thing? If it didn't work for them, why not try something different?
Of coarse I realise they cannot, but if they're regretting the abortion, dont you think they're regretting the ABORTION, for whatever reason? So if they could do it again, why would they choose abortion if they regretted it?
[sorry if that sounded confussing]

Because they might have regretted having the baby even more than they regretted having the abortion.
 

Grayscale

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Parents, talk to your kids about abortion, they'll be glad to know you wanted to keep them :yim_rolling_on_the_

"...but if you put crayon on the walls one more time you're outta here buddy!"
 

Not_Me

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when you drive an automobile, you are accepting the risk of an accident.
Accepting the risk does not imply that I will not do everything to mitigate damages should it occur.

Only applies if you forgo natural order... there is nothing natural about abortion.
Natural does not matter. If you got a severe infection, it's not natural to survive it. Yet, we intervene with antibiotics.
 

simulatedworld

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lol I <3 the "it's not natural!" argument that conservatives apply like a blunt hammer to any social/sexual issue that bothers them (abortion, homosexuality, you name it!)

I wonder if any of them have ever heard of modern medicine, contact lenses, polyester, etc.

If it's your belief that unnatural = bad, then fine, but if you want to legislate that belief you need something more substantial than just your personal feeling that it's unnatural. You're talking about restricting other people's rights here!
 

nynesneg

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Grayscale said:
Embryo eventually grows into a human. the only reason this is even debated is because people dont consider things in their essential form.
So you're saying all forms of hormonal birth control (ie the pill, shot, iud, patch) are unethical because all the necessary components are inside the woman together (sperm+egg), the environment is just altered so they die?

Impressive, first guy I've met who actually likes condoms.
 

simulatedworld

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Personally I'd say we all just need to ban modern housing and go back to living in caves.

God put those caves for a reason, dammit. You think it's natural for us to cut down trees (themselves living organisms!) and exploit them to build residential areas full of artificial housing where God clearly intended open fields and forests?

It ain't natural, if ya ask me.
 

Lateralus

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People will never agree on the moral and ethical aspects of abortion. I wish people could debate the economic aspects of the issue without devolving into this sort of debate. This thread is pointless.
 

Not_Me

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But sex is made to reproduce, so if you have sex you should at least realise that you can very well have a baby if you do exacally what it takes to reproduce.
That's why it's comforting to know that options are available if birth control fails. :)
 
S

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lol I <3 the "it's not natural!" argument that conservatives apply like a blunt hammer to any social/sexual issue that bothers them (abortion, homosexuality, you name it!)

I wonder if any of them have ever heard of modern medicine, contact lenses, polyester, etc.

If it's your belief that unnatural = bad, then fine, but if you want to legislate that belief you need something more substantial than just your personal feeling that it's unnatural. You're talking about restricting other people's rights here!

Do you level this against Left-wing enviromentalists as well - since nature seems to hold a more primary element to their perspective?
 

nynesneg

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People will never agree on the moral and ethical aspects of abortion. I wish people could debate the economic aspects of the issue without devolving into this sort of debate. This thread is pointless.

Oh I agree. :nice:

Never really have taken the time to form an educated opinion on the issue.

I'm just curious why people don't see hormonal birth control under the same ethical category. Because either way you're not letting sperm+egg together live.
 

Grayscale

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Accepting the risk does not imply that I will not do everything to mitigate damages should it occur.


Natural does not matter. If you got a severe infection, it's not natural to survive it. Yet, we intervene with antibiotics.

I really am not sure how else to explain this... as soon as conception occurs, it is my belief that another human life must be taken into account, so at that point intervention is essentially murder. Not in the gunshot, knife wound sort of way, more like the what was once both alive and human is now no longer alive by the purposeful actions of another human without just cause because the victim is innocent.

As I stated earlier the bottom line disagreement is what is human life essentially. All these other things are just distractions. Here, I will provide a diagram:

human_life_cycle.jpg


It is my belief that human life begins when the 2 arrows become one. The egg and the sperm alone will remain that way, it is when by our choices they are joined them that another life begins. Not every time, but you're rolling the dice either way. My point about the auto accident is that our choices have consequences.

So the question here is, what is the correct choice of action? I say, allow nature to run its course as we know and expect it to and accept the responsibility of your actions. Others say, make up for the outcome at the expense of another's life. However, I know the "make up for our mistakes" attitude is largely what dominates our society. Overweight? Diet and exercise are slow and painstaking, why not liposuction or this mystery pill? That way, you can keep overeating, because the problem is not they you're stuffing your face, it's that stuffing your face makes you fat, and damnit we dont like that! WTF nature, how could you.
 

simulatedworld

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Yes grayscale we're well aware of how the birds and the bees work and the fact that sex risks pregnancy, thanks.

Sixth grade sex ed lessons aside, though, we're discussing whether or not people have the right to force other people to have babies once a pregnancy has occurred.

Your position suggests implicitly that according to some arbitrary moral directive, sex should only happen for procreation. Why should having sex for recreation constitute a binding agreement to bear a child if neither participant wants one? I don't like the implication that I'm morally in the wrong if I'm having sex without the desire to produce offspring.
 

Lateralus

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That is why it should be up to the individual.
No, that's why a cost/benefit analysis should be performed to see if abortion benefits society. My intuition tells me that abortion probably does benefit society, but I don't know that for sure.
 
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