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for those against abortion

WildCard

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I'm saying that I'm against using it for the wrong reasons. If you don't want a kid, let someone who can't have biological children have it.

As for it being easy to judge something, I lost a potential nephew because my sister allowed her husband to talk her into aborting. It should be done only in situations that it is called for.

So before you jump me, maybe you should understand the reason why.
 

Amethyst

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I'm saying that I'm against using it for the wrong reasons. If you don't want a kid, let someone who can't have biological children have it.

As for it being easy to judge something, I lost a potential nephew because my sister allowed her husband to talk her into aborting. It should be done only in situations that it is called for.

So before you jump me, maybe you should understand the reason why.

I agree with this...although personally, I don't care if other people get an abortion. It's their choice, if they didn't want to send it to adoption, or didn't know how to, or thought they could never raise a child and that its life would end up far worse if it lived, then so be it. You're the one carrying it, I'm not.

Although personally, I would never have an abortion unless I had to (complications and such)
 

Randomnity

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I'm saying that I'm against using it for the wrong reasons.
I think most people are, it's just that the reasons can be very different for different people. Not everyone would give a child up for adoption, for example, even if the only alternative is abortion. I would rather not bring a child into the world than bring one into a bad environment. The idea is not whether you think it's good or bad, it's whether you think your opinion trumps everyone else's.

It's an interesting (sort of) debate but fruitless, since neither side ever changes their mind. :)
 

Mole

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Emotional Blackmail and Biology

It's an interesting (sort of) debate but fruitless, since neither side ever changes their mind. :)

I changed my mind after studying biology and learning that many, many more spontaneous abortions occur naturally than are induced.

And after a while the cry, "Abortion is murder", started to look like emotional blackmail.

And it is repulsive emotional blackmail backed by wilful ignorance of biology.
 

Take Five

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I changed my mind after studying biology and learning that many, many more spontaneous abortions occur naturally than are induced.

And after a while the cry, "Abortion is murder", started to look like emotional blackmail.

And it is repulsive emotional blackmail backed by wilful ignorance of biology.

I changed my mind after studying biology and learning that many, many more deaths during sleep occur naturally than are induced.

And after a while the cry, "Suffocating somebody while he or she is sleeping is murder", started to look like emotional blackmail.

And it is repulsive emotional blackmail backed by wilful ignorance of biology.
 

Take Five

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Those who have been damaged by emotional blackmail become damaging themselves.

This is emotionally painful to face so we try all kinds of fantastic rationalisations to hide it.

But they don't realise how absurd they have become.

But defending child sexual abuse or abortion as murder or the infallibility of the Pope, leads one ineluctably into absurdity.

Unfortunately for your argument, the state of my mental integrity and health has less than nothing to do with the pro-choice vs pro-life debate. Funny how pedophilia and the Pope made an appearance in this thread too...

The point is that you must take intent into consideration in such matters like abortion.
 

angell_m

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This is going to sound really bad. But I have a hard time with people who think abortion is ever permissible. I have a hard time understanding them, and seeing them as anyone other than a killer. They might as well say "I think you should kill anyone in your way in line at WalMart. Sort of.

People 100 years ago said "eh well, everyone's racist." And looking at it now, that's poor morality.

One explanation I've heard is -- "Well morality is at the heart, and its just a matter of getting to the head." But I dunno...

If you don't agree, don't worry about it. Just don't post. I just want to understand this all better.

1.) Because rape is bad.

2.) Because teenage accident pregnancy is bad.

3.) Because in 1900 we were 1.5 billion people on the planet, and in the last 100 years the numbers have (steadily) increased up to 7.0 billion people (if it continues we will have 12.0 billion people before year 2050). And to think, there used to be over 100 thousand Cheetah's on the planet in 1900, but today is less than 7000 (6000 in captivity/fenced), because we just keep on breeding (without purpose, of course) like a virus, until the planet is completely infected by us, wilts, and dies.

People don't have sex without a condom on purpose just to go "Whoopsie, now we'll do abortion," you know that right?

Do you want to put up an international law that says "You cannot have more than one pregnancy?" Because that is what is likely to happen soon.

Everything else in this world is declining in population, just like the world's resources is. Food, trees, plants, animal life, iron, gold, oil. And you want to continue to squirt out "miracle babies" like everything will be alright? I find THAT a sick attitude, not abortion. You're more destructive than I am.

Ps. There's a reason why you cannot remember your own birth.
 

Coriolis

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There are really two questions here:

1) In which circumstances, if any, is abortion justifiable?

2) Should the above question be decided by the government, or by individuals?

The first is moral, the second is legal. The two spheres overlap often, but not always.
 

Mole

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Unfortunately for your argument, the state of my mental integrity and health has less than nothing to do with the pro-choice vs pro-life debate. Funny how pedophilia and the Pope made an appearance in this thread too...

The point is that you must take intent into consideration in such matters like abortion.

They say Catholics believe three impossible things before breakfast and no wonder this twists their minds into absurd rationalisations.

And of course Catholics don't know how absurd they sound. And as they try to impress their absurdity on us, they become cranky. And so there is a particular kind of crank called a Catholic crank.

When you try to impress absurdity on others, you become absurd yourself.
 

Take Five

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They say Catholics believe three impossible things before breakfast and no wonder this twists their minds into absurd rationalisations.

And of course Catholics don't know how absurd they sound. And as they try to impress their absurdity on us, they become cranky. And so there is a particular kind of crank called a Catholic crank.

When you try to impress absurdity on others, you become absurd yourself.

Thanks for the evidence you've given, but still this argument proves insufficient to the topic at hand. One must consider intent when making moral judgments.
 

Mole

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The Apology and the Telephone

Thanks for the evidence you've given, but still this argument proves insufficient to the topic at hand. One must consider intent when making moral judgments.

I have no more interest in arguing than I have in flying.

Argument is a function of print, but here we are writing and reading electronic text.

And electronic text is more suited to conversation than argument.

Of course there is the Catholic tradition of Apologetics based on print and evidence and reason and argument.

But there is no need to apologise to me, mate. I'm here for electronic conversation. I left Catholic Apologetics a long time ago.

The invention of the printing press in 1440 gave birth to Catholic Apologetics and the invention of the telephone gave birth to conversation.

So - no need to apologise - there is no need to justify your existence, just get on the blower and have a word with me.
 

Take Five

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I have no more interest in arguing than I have in flying.

Argument is a function of print, but here we are writing and reading electronic text.

And electronic text is more suited to conversation than argument.

Of course there is the Catholic tradition of Apologetics based on print and evidence and reason and argument.

But there is no need to apologise to me, mate. I'm here for electronic conversation. I left Catholic Apologetics a long time ago.

The invention of the printing press in 1440 gave birth to Catholic Apologetics and the invention of the telephone gave birth to conversation.

So - no need to apologise - there is no need to justify your existence, just get on the blower and have a word with me.

I'm a little disappointed that the RCC has to be involved with our ethical discussion.
 

Mole

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The Human Conversation

I'm a little disappointed that the RCC has to be involved with our ethical discussion.

Well, the Catholics do have a reasoned argument against abortion based on evidence. And it seems to me that this is the argument you are quoting.

However two things have happened. First biology has shown us that spontaneous abortion is normal and prolific in nature. And as we are part of nature, spontaneous abortion is natural and spontaneous in homo sapiens.

And if the human soul is created by God at the moment of conception, why are not all these spontaneous abortions baptised by the Church. And in fact not one spontaneous abortion is baptised by the Church. So they don't even believe their own doctrine that the human soul is created at the moment of conception, otherwise they would be baptising all these spontaneous abortions to save them from original sin.

The second thing that has happened is that the telephone and the electronic media have been recently invented and so made argument and Apologetics, moot.

Apologetics and argument are now only used by the neurotic as a defence against learning to relate to their fellow human beings.

Argument is now simply a psychological defence against feeling and emotion. And in particular argument is simply a defence against sharing feeling and emotion.

To cure children of their neurosis, we talk to them on the telephone.

And this works well with adults as well. So if you give me your telephone number, I will ring you and talk with you. In this way you may leave the ugliness of Catholic Apologetics and join the human conversation.
 

Take Five

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Well, the Catholics do have a reasoned argument against abortion based on evidence. And it seems to me that this is the argument you are quoting.

However two things have happened. First biology has shown us that spontaneous abortion is normal and prolific in nature. And as we are part of nature, spontaneous abortion is natural and spontaneous in homo sapiens.

And if the human soul is created by God at the moment of conception, why are not all these spontaneous abortions baptised by the Church. And in fact not one spontaneous abortion is baptised by the Church. So they don't even believe their own doctrine that the human soul is created at the moment of conception, otherwise they would be baptising all these spontaneous abortions to save them from original sin.

The second thing that has happened is that the telephone and the electronic media have been recently invented and so made argument and Apologetics, moot.

Apologetics and argument are now only used by the neurotic as a defence against learning to relate to their fellow human beings.

Argument is now simply a psychological defence against feeling and emotion. And in particular argument is simply a defence against sharing feeling and emotion.

To cure children of their neurosis, we talk to them on the telephone.

And this works well with adults as well. So if you give me your telephone number, I will ring you and talk with you. In this way you may leave the ugliness of Catholic Apologetics and join the human conversation.

Hurricanes happen naturally and devestate. There is now work on tech that aims to influence the flow direction of hurricanes. By your words, we could use that technology to kill people without moral scruples.

Nature doesn't matter here, it's intent.
 

Mole

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Hurricanes happen naturally and devestate. There is now work on tech that aims to influence the flow direction of hurricanes. By your words, we could use that technology to kill people without moral scruples.

How wonderfully absurd.

But the price of such absurdity is being out of touch with reality.
 

Amethyst

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I see abortions as the new infant mortality rate in developed countries (except it's wanted, so it is likely that it will challenge someone's morality and such), since infant mortality rates have pretty much are slim to none these days. Like someone said before, we're reproducing at an alarming rate, and the earth can't possibly support another 20 billion or so in the future.

The fall of humanity due to overpopulation seems much more catastrophic than a few thousand abortions, but that's just me.
 

Qre:us

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I stand against abortion. The only time that it should be used is either in cases of incest and/or rape in young girls or the the risk is too high for either the mother, child, or both.

I never understood this argument, as it seems the "pro-lifers" making this argument suddenly switch it up and start considering the woman's perspective over the fetus, while for the rest of their argument it is about the fetus over the woman :wacko:

So, "pro-lifers" aka, pro-life-of-potential-human, aka, pro-fetus:


Why are the circumstances of the conception used to determine if a fetus has a "right to live"?

What if a child is born from rape and/or incest, should this child be ordered to die because it was born out of rape or incest while those children born from a "loving coupling" be allowed to live? How is that fair?

Also, if you make exceptions for certain "cases"/types of fetus, what is your reasoning for not granting the same actions to the other fetuses?

You esentially then are putting value on a fetus according to its conception, and saying that certain fetus are more worthy of "living" than another.

I.e., that any children born of rape or incest are not of value as other children and that they should have been aborted. This kind of thinking seems highly unjust. Just sayin'.
 
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