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for those against abortion

Unkindloving

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There is always something that sticks in my mind over this.
It's this delusional undertone of "Oh, humanity is superior, so we mustn't defile conception!" all the while implying "Oh, but we aren't superior enough to accept advancements and the choices obtained through being superior!"
Where does one draw the line exactly?
It's hard for me to get a handle on all of this when the majority of people latch on to one thing or another. If someone wants to control the sanctity of life, then focus on how we war, how people are murdered daily in rough neighborhoods, how people starve, how people destroy other life to nourish their own, etc. Contemplate everything or nothing, or accept that the middle grounds are always going to vary.

It shouldn't be ludicrous to desire that the people who want children and the people who don't should use their individual opinion individually.

I'm a strong believer in population control. The debate that a child has the possibility of being the next Mother Teresa or the next Hitler. That there should be a child-bearing survey instigated. That we can/should decide these things as individuals. I'm also a strong believer in respecting those who don't share my opinions, but keep their opinions out of the tupperware and away from my front door.

I'm also commonly for abortion, but i'm not going to tell every broad with a baby bump to get the melon baller and extract the little demon seed. It's just an understanding of what they want vs what i want.
 
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Sniffles

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I believe I dealt with that theme earlier with this:
That's the whole point behind having choices and controlling your life, you accept the fact you can control yourself to such an extent and take responsibilities for those choices you make - otherwise you're not fit to be in that situation.

I should also mention that in order to truely appreciate the fact one has the freedom to make choices and control their lives involves a certain appreciation for life as an end in itself. That means concluding that existence is better than non-existence. It doesn't take long to figure out where this leads in terms of discussing abortion.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/890331-post348.html
 

Coriolis

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Still I think Democrats should get on the front end of the trend and move toward a more pro-life stance. I think with time they are going to find themselves on the right end of most issues, but they could lose a lot of voters if they stay pro-choice. There are a fair amount of people who vote Republican just because of this one issue, and the public is just going to become more pro-life over time.
Everyone is "pro-life". The difference lies in just whose life we are "pro". Who are we willing to see involuntarily die a preventable death? An unborn fetus? A convict on death row? A child who misses out on critical medical treatment because his family cannot afford it? Innocent Afghans caught in an attack on suspected Taliban?
 

Take Five

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Everyone is "pro-life". The difference lies in just whose life we are "pro". Who are we willing to see involuntarily die a preventable death? An unborn fetus? A convict on death row? A child who misses out on critical medical treatment because his family cannot afford it? Innocent Afghans caught in an attack on suspected Taliban?

Pro-life, in its most common use, is a term used to mean anti-abortion. It can be expanded to other issues but that's beside the point. LL means anti-abortion.
 

Totenkindly

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Basically, you're given an undeniable right to life if you're not born yet.

After that, it really depends on who you are, what you've done, which country you live in, what religion you belong to, and whether it's convenient or not to worry about your survival. (If you're a kid living in Iraq, it's sad to see you go, but in order to blow up the bad guys, you're regretfully labeled as collateral damage if you get hurt.)
 

Take Five

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(If you're a kid living in Iraq, it's sad to see you go, but in order to blow up the bad guys, you're regretfully labeled as collateral damage if you get hurt.)


Check out the Marine COIN field manual for a better understanding of wartime civilians in an insurgency. Although, the COIN doctrine doesn't necessarily reflect individual opinions. But at least we've got a good official policy.

Right about the other things indisputably. Just thought this will enrich perception.
 

Coriolis

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Pro-life, in its most common use, is a term used to mean anti-abortion. It can be expanded to other issues but that's beside the point. LL means anti-abortion.
My point exactly. The use of this term is merely an attempt by religious fundamentalists to frame the debate in a way that will make them look good and their opponents evil. This ignores the complexity of the issue. If "pro-life" really means "anti-abortion", then proponents should use the term "anti-abortion". I would then maintain, though, that everyone is "anti-abortion". Even people who want to keep it safe, legal, and accessible tend to view it as at best a last resort, a necessary evil that should be used very sparingly.

The political debate thus boils down to just how much control people want the government to have over human reproduction. The same authority that could be used to prevent abortion could be turned around some day to require it, as in China. It is best to keep government out of this issue entirely, and rely on gentle persuasion and practical assistance to reduce the numbers of elective abortions performed, something almost everyone would view as desirable.
 

Mole

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...and rely on gentle persuasion and practical assistance to reduce the numbers of elective abortions performed, something almost everyone would view as desirable.

This raises the interesting question -

Would it be as desirable to reduce the number of spontaneous abortions?
 

Amethyst

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So, just out of curiosity, would you see a mother as a murderer if she had to have an abortion, for if she didn't she wouldn't live through the last trimester, regardless of whether or not the 'fetus' survived to term?


People 100 years ago said "eh well, everyone's racist." And looking at it now, that's poor morality.
:huh:
[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM"]racizm[/YOUTUBE]
 

Coriolis

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This raises the interesting question -

Would it be as desirable to reduce the number of spontaneous abortions?
No, for reasons that have already been discussed. A spontaneous abortion frequently happens when the fetus is not viable. Most people who oppose abortion consider themselves religious, and believe in an afterlife in the presence of God. Any soul already associated with a miscarried fetus would then return to its creator; not such a bad fate after all.

Tawanda: was your question directed at me? I do not consider a woman who aborts an unviable fetus to be a murder in any circumstance. If the fetus is viable in terms of size/age, the threshold is higher. Still, pregnancy is a singular state. Nowhere else does one human place such constant, untransferrable, and unique demands on another. I place high value, then, on the self-determination of the "host being".
 
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Sniffles

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My point exactly. The use of this term is merely an attempt by religious fundamentalists to frame the debate in a way that will make them look good and their opponents evil. This ignores the complexity of the issue.
And what about those who use the term "pro-Choice"? I mean "Birth Control League" changed its named to "Planned Parenthood" as well.
 

Amethyst

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Tawanda: was your question directed at me? I do not consider a woman who aborts an unviable fetus to be a murder in any circumstance. If the fetus is viable in terms of size/age, the threshold is higher. Still, pregnancy is a singular state. Nowhere else does one human place such constant, untransferrable, and unique demands on another. I place high value, then, on the self-determination of the "host being".

It was more directed to the OP, but I'd like to hear several opinions on this.

Apparently the Catholic Church doesn't agree.
Nun Excommunicated For Allowing Abortion : NPR

I feel like they see it more as mother<potential child (not saying all Catholics do, just those with high power in the Church for the most part).
 

Mole

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Limbo

Any soul already associated with a miscarried fetus would then return to its creator; not such a bad fate after all.

For a thousand years we were told the soul of a miscarried fetus or a spontaneous abortion would go to Limbo for all eternity.

But just recently we were told that Limbo had been abolished and I want to know what happened to all those little babies!
 
G

Ginkgo

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For a thousand years we were told the soul of a miscarried fetus or a spontaneous abortion would go to Limbo for all eternity.

But just recently we were told that Limbo had been abolished and I want to know what happened to all those little babies!

They went here.
 

Take Five

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It was more directed to the OP, but I'd like to hear several opinions on this.

Apparently the Catholic Church doesn't agree.
Nun Excommunicated For Allowing Abortion : NPR

I feel like they see it more as mother<potential child (not saying all Catholics do, just those with high power in the Church for the most part).

This got a lot of press. Poorly done press. This article is actually one of the better ones. The RCC teaches that it's immoral to kill an innocent to save another person-the ends don't justify the means. That goes for any situation, in any relationship. In war a lot people are against passivity to collateral damage; in pregnancy, this understanding is lost.

Unlike most of the press first portrayed the incident, the bishop did not excommunicate the nun. Under the canon, anyone who willfully commits abortion is automatically excommunicated when the act is done. The excommunication doesn't require an active measure from any Church figure.
 

Coriolis

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And what about those who use the term "pro-Choice"? I mean "Birth Control League" changed its named to "Planned Parenthood" as well.
It depends on what they are really doing. If all they advocate is birth control, then "Birth control league" is most descriptive. If they expand to include prenatal care, abortion, even infertility treatments, then "Planned parenthood" is more descriptive, since their work addresses all aspects of planning one's reproductive life, whether that includes many children or none at all. My experience of PP is limited, but in some areas where I have lived, women can get basic ob/gyn services at PP clinics, and not just birth control or abortion.

When I hear "pro-choice", I think more of political advocacy than the direct provision of services (PP does both). There may be a better way to express the political and legal goal of ensuring reproductive issues are left to individual choice rather than government directive. More accurate terminology on both sides might allow the debate to focus on facts rather than image or spin, but then ideologues on both side seem to depend on this not happening.
 

WildCard

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I stand against abortion. The only time that it should be used is either in cases of incest and/or rape in young girls or the the risk is too high for either the mother, child, or both.

For me, if you choose to have sex, you are also choosing the consequences. STD's and children just happen to be those consequences. I don't think a hooker should be allowed to have an abortion just because she doesn't want it.

And to be honest, if more people agreed with abortion, just how many of us would even be here? I know if my mother had been like most of the teenage mothers now days, I wouldn't be sitting here debating this topic.
 

Randomnity

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And to be honest, if more people agreed with abortion, just how many of us would even be here? I know if my mother had been like most of the teenage mothers now days, I wouldn't be sitting here debating this topic.
those of us with mothers who wanted us would still be here. Forcing women to keep children in an environment where the mother is unwilling or unable to care for it properly will not end well for the child.

My parents didn't believe in abortion and wanted kids, and I still don't think they should have had children for financial and personality reasons.

Guess what, if we hadn't been born we wouldn't be around to get bummed about not being born. lots of things could have resulted in us not being born, if you want to get all philosophical about it.

By the way, consequences suck but they can be helped by living in a civilized society. Back in the day if you slipped and broke your leg, you'd die because you couldn't hunt. Now we've developed the technology to set broken bones so the consequences are less dire. If you argue that abortion should be illegal because children are a natural consequence, you should also be forbidden from seeking medical treatment, since gangrene should be a natural result of being dumb enough to get your leg crushed.

Sure is easy to judge when you're not in that position, huh?
 
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