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for those against abortion

Amargith

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Yes, but there's downsides to every situation. The woman takes more social stigma and suffers all the normal physical stress of pregnancy. The father, however, can't carry his baby in his body, and is at the mercy of the mom's decision.

It seems to me that women actually have the advantage here if you step back another level: the fate of the baby is in their hands. This is a final, bottom line decision--their opinion is the one that counts.

Whereas with men, they suffer potentially no social stigma, no financial burden, no physical burden, no whatever, but I think we can all agree intense psychological pain is the most difficult to bear, and if the dad wants his kid, it's out of his control and totally in control of the mom.

Agreed. Completely agreed. But that's only as long as that right remains with women and isn't taken away from them. It's a sucky situation either way you look at it.
 

Risen

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:) But you will never run that risk yourself. Nor do you make sure you don't put anyone else at risk (aka abstaining). It makes it easier to step back and go 'this is what the right thing to do is' as you subconsciously know you'll never have to worry about all the dilemma's that right choice brings forth. Nor will you ever have to deal with the practical problems it will cause. The emotional trauma that follows.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But you could stand to take into account that you are in fact in a very safe position when it comes to this issue. And therefore, it's easy for you to say what should be done.

Oh come on Amar, you know me. I know I've told you why I've made some of the decisions I have in my sex life. I do limit my partners, even when there's a high demand. I will never have to worry about the choices and dilemmas because I make conscious choices not to put myself into compromising situations, which is a part of making good decisions. So long as I have had or do have sex with people I'm not married to, or know that they wouldn't abort should they get pregnant, I can't claim that all of my sexual experiences were "safe" ones. I am, however, an INTP and part of my natural thought process is in considering all possibilities around my actions, and I already know how I'd act/react if such a situation occurred. The problem is I have no control over what my partner would do, and that's why being selective with your partners is important.

But again, nobody can be perfect, we can only GENERALLY act in accordance with our values and make smart decisions that don't put us in tough positions. When we do get into that place, for whatever reason, what we ultimately choose puts our integrity to the test. I honestly can't relate to the thinking that says just because you're smart enough to avoid compromising situations, you can neither make judgments about how to act in order to stay out of those situations nor can you judge what should be done when you do get into that position, because you will never be there. That's not productive in any sense.
 

Fidelia

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Usehername - It seems to me that all of the legal system imposes laws on others that they may not agree with. This is the difficult thing about a country without a common worldview that is used as the premise for lawmaking. There are no good answers. It boils down to those who are most powerful making the decision. The majority of people voting for a decision certainly doesn't ensure a good decision, as is evidenced by many civilizations who willingly elected despicable leaders or who participated in horrific practices.

The argument that women will have illegal abortions anyway and more will die in the process is as logical as saying that murderers should be supplied with guns that don't backfire. That way they won't hurt/kill themselves in the process because they are going to murder whether it's legal or not. (I'm not saying it's the same argument, but it's about as logical).

I realize that there are many considerations within this argument, but in a country where we are not suffering for available birth control and information (even for teenagers) and where the majority of abortions performed are done so without proper information being provided to the recipient, and for reasons of convenience, the back alley coat hanger abortion argument doesn't seem very valid to me. This has more to do with taking responsibility for decisions that people old enough to reproduce make.
 

Usehername

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No not really. Fascism is a particular kind of political thinking. With any set of laws you're going to end up imposing a standard that some are going to disagree with. Unless you're advocating something like Panarchism here.

Point taken about my hyperbole with the term; I still think the ideas it connotes is right--there's no reason for us all to start with the same premises; people are going to have abortions; that's reality.
 
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Sniffles

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:) But you will never run that risk yourself. Nor do you make sure you don't put anyone else at risk (aka abstaining). It makes it easier to step back and go 'this is what the right thing to do is' as you subconsciously know you'll never have to worry about all the dilemma's that right choice brings forth. Nor will you ever have to deal with the practical problems it will cause. The emotional trauma that follows.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But you could stand to take into account that you are in fact (in comparison) in a very safe position when it comes to this issue. And therefore, it's easy for you to say what should be done.

I may not know up close and personal, but that doesn't necessarily detract from my arguments on the matter - not least of which because there are women who agree with my basic positions here.

Sure you can bring up all the emotional issues women go through, but that doesn't necessarily mean abortion is the right solution to those issues. Even from a pro-choice position that should only be the last resort when all other options have been reasonably exhausted.

So even then there should be an emphasis on preserving the life of the child at all costs when possible, even if abortion is legal. Also it should be restricted as much as reasonably possible, if the assumption is that abortion is to be legal.

For example, I find the laws of Poland to be rather reasonable in regards to legalizing abortion - in that it's restricted to a few specific kinds of circumstances. Malta is the only country I know of that restricts abortion under any circumstances, that and Ireland I believe.
 

Usehername

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The argument that women will have illegal abortions anyway and more will die in the process is as logical as saying that murderers should be supplied with guns that don't backfire. That way they won't hurt/kill themselves in the process because they are going to murder whether it's legal or not. (I'm not saying it's the same argument, but it's about as logical).

No it's not though--we all agree on the definition of murder. We don't all agree on The Definition of Human Life. We're never going to all agree on the definition of human life. Hence, it's not murder in some people's eyes, hence people are going to want abortions.
 

Fidelia

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What about those who have no compuctions about murder? For example, honour killings are acknowledged as murder in some cultures and yet are encouraged. I don't think the definition matters so much as the act itself. Since we have no objective, universally recognized guidelines by which to judge that act, it leaves us in the position of the most powerful making a judgement call or else agreeing that everyone should do what they feel is right in the least harmful way.
 

Giggly

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Whereas with men, they suffer potentially no social stigma, no financial burden, no physical burden, no whatever, but I think we can all agree intense psychological pain is the most difficult to bear, and if the dad wants his kid, it's out of his control and totally in control of the mom. Have you read about dads or seen on postsecret all the stuff about the fathers who wanted their babies? They do exist out there.

I have seen this with my brother. He was engaged to a woman that he loved a couple of years ago, and she got pregnant. He was so thrilled and wanted the baby, and had every indication from her that they would be having it. Well, unbeknownst to him, she went and had an abortion one day. It turns out that she didn't want the baby because she wasn't ready for the responsibility, and was too afraid and unwilling to discuss it with him because she had her mind made up. My brother was absolutely shocked and torn apart. He cried to us. He felt like she killed his baby (his words), and the emotional tormoil of that made him question everything about her.
 

Amargith

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Oh come on Amar, you know me. I know I've told you why I've made some of the decisions I have in my sex life. I do limit my partners, even when there's a high demand. I will never have to worry about the choices and dilemmas because I make conscious choices not to put myself into compromising situations, which is a part of making good decisions. So long as I have had or do have sex with people I'm not married to, or know that they wouldn't abort should they get pregnant, I can't claim that all of my sexual experiences were "safe" ones. I am, however, an INTP and part of my natural thought process is in considering all possibilities around my actions, and I already know how I'd act/react if such a situation occurred. The problem is I have no control over what my partner would do, and that's why being selective with your partners is important.

But again, nobody can be perfect, we can only GENERALLY act in accordance with our values and make smart decisions that don't put us in tough positions. When we do get into that place, for whatever reason, what we ultimately choose puts our integrity to the test. I honestly can't relate to the thinking that says just because you're smart enough to avoid compromising situations, you can neither make judgments about how to act in order to stay out of those situations nor can you judge what should be done when you do get into that position, because you will never be there. That's not productive in any sense.


Oh I do know you hon, and I never said you were irresponsible or what not. But it is true that no contraceptive is ever fully effective and you have no way of knowing how the girl you slept with will really respond, if the situation were to occur. People give odd reactions when push comes to shove and do things they'd never think they'd do. That might not be productive to think that way..but it is true :)

I may not know up close and personal, but that doesn't necessarily detract from my arguments on the matter - not least of which because there are women who agree with my basic positions here.

Sure you can bring up all the emotional issues women go through, but that doesn't necessarily mean abortion is the right solution to those issues. Even from a pro-choice position that should only be the last resort when all other options have been reasonably exhausted.

So even then there should be an emphasis on preserving the life of the child at all costs when possible, even if abortion is legal. Also it should be restricted as much as reasonably possible, if the assumption is that abortion is to be legal.

For example, I find the laws of Poland to be rather reasonable in regards to legalizing abortion - in that it's restricted to a few specific kinds of circumstances. Malta is the only country I know of that restricts abortion under any circumstances, that and Ireland I believe.

I never said it was the right solution in any circumstance. But context is everything, sweety. For the record, I'll repeat that I would like to think I'd keep the baby if it were to happen to me. In fact, considering my age, I'd say I'm fairly sure. However, I cannot tell you how many times I woke up when I was younger, at 3 am, scared shitless, not remembering if I took my pill or not. I *knew* I wasn't ready, hell I still aint, but at least I'm closer. It only takes a little bit of bad luck and a moment of forgetfulness. And the idea of someone being able to tell me what to do with my body and being able to force me to do 'the right thing' (or their version of it), scares the living daylights out of me. Forcing someone to do something that they're not ready for either, isn't exactly the right thing to do either. So how do you decide what to do wrongly? And more importantly...who gets to decide?
 

Totenkindly

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You still have to take responsibility for your actions, regardless. Your actions have effects, whether somebody punishes you or LIFE punishes you. there is no escape just because somebody wants to play victim. In most cases, both the man and the woman who messed up and created a child are responsible, and accountable for what they choose to do from then on. It applies to every other aspect of decision making in life, and it applies to this subject as well. Life is not fair. The world is not just. We make choices, we must live with the results of those choices. Things happen to us that really are out of our control, then we make CHOICES on how to respond, choices that are in our control. That is my point. The situation ends up different for everyone in regards to abortion, but nobody has grounds to suggest somebody is completely and wholly excused from how they choose to react to whatever situation may have given rise to the child being created. When you have the power to use your brain and make a choice in life, that is YOURS to own, and nobody elses. You are responsible for the choice you made and all the choices you didn't make.

Well, I think that part, I addressed very specifically earlier: I don't think I ever have thought or suggested that someone could be wholly excused from the responsibility for their decisions.

It's also ironic because 10-15 years ago, I think I was writing posts that aren't a lot different than what you're saying here. If one thing was beaten into me by my childhood, it was an excruciating T-rigor of responsibility. I was pretty merciless in how I judged others and ever far worse in how I judged myself, and there were no excuses for any choice that was below the rational ideal. I was pretty relentless in my beliefs this way, and it really affected the quality of my life and relationships for many years. I had the same opinion on the abortion topic as what you describe in your posts.

One of the things that changed is that, earlier in life, I thought I had all the answers and the "right way" to view the situation. Later, I realized many of my conclusions were drawn based on my own values, of which I did not have actual hard evidence, and while it's necessary in life to fight for what I believed to be true, I also had to be fair and respectful of people who had different values if I perceived they were attempting to the best of their ability to be true, virtuous, and responsible for their decisions. (I don't know how better to qualify that statement right now.)

I don't think you still yet see the inflexibility within your perspective... the sense that you have the only handle on truth here and so you can judge others as harshly about what is responsible and what is not as you'd judge yourself if you were in this position and chose to abort.

I totally believe you when you say in a later post that you wouldn't abort, although obviously you will never be in that situation yourself, directly. Your commitment to this particular position is very evident to me. And it's very admirable to me that you would do that. You're certainly not a hypocrite.

The point, though, is that it is not your responsibility to decide for other people what their responsibility should be. You can decide what your responsibility should be, and you can have a strong opinion about what their responsibility should be, but taking responsibility for other people by controlling their behavior or treating them as deficient/irresponsible in your mind if they choose another path for whatever reason seems like a lack of humility to me (just like I judge myself for that period of my life when I held similar views, I lacked humility in some crucial ways) and diminishes/undermines potential dialog and growth for everyone. The rigor of the position you're expecting others to adhere to is not realistic for many, it's only realistic for you and those like you, and so you're going to have to find a different way to approach it if you want to help people embrace the solution(s) you value.


But don't mind me, I'm just a right wing nut.

Gee. Do not put yourself down like that.

I actually found your last number of posts here extremely brave and insightful, and I think you've added a lot to the conversation. Even if I disagree with some of your premises, I've seen very few posts that were worded so well, strongly, and coherently; and if they weren't, I wouldn't waste my time responding to them. You've definitely helped boost this conversation to the Next Level, whatever that is.
 
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Sniffles

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I never said it was the right solution in any circumstance. But context is everything, sweety. For the record, I'll repeat that I would like to think I'd keep the baby if it were to happen to me. In fact, considering my age, I'd say I'm fairly sure. However, I cannot tell you how many times I woke up when I was younger, at 3 am, scared shitless, not remembering if I took my pill or not. I *knew* I wasn't ready, hell I still aint, but at least I'm closer. It only takes a little bit of bad luck and a moment of forgetfulness. And the idea of someone being able to tell me what to do with my body and being able to force me to do 'the right thing' (or their version of it), scares the living daylights out of me. Forcing someone to do something that they're not ready for either, isn't exactly the right thing to do either. So how do you decide what to do wrongly? And more importantly...who gets to decide?

But this assumes that you're somehow forced to raise the child if you deem yourself unworthy of the task at hand. That's not necessarily so, as has been pointed out in regards to adoption or other social networks that will willingly care for the child in your place. There are also charities and networks that will be more than willing to help you care for the child if you choose to keep it but still unsure about how fit you are as a mother. It's not necessarily so that you're sent out in the cold with a baby on your hands.
 

Amargith

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Jennifer, I'm going to let you take it from here, you're far better at wording this stuff than I am :D
 

Amargith

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But this assumes that you're somehow forced to raised the child if you deem yourself unworthy of the task at hand. That's not necessarily so, as has been pointed out in regards to adoption or other social networks that will willingly care for the child in your place. There are also charities and networks that will be more than willing to help you care for the child if you choose to keep it but still unsure about how fit you are as a mother. It's not necessarily so that you're sent out in the cold with a baby on your hands.

No, Peguy..the idea of having to change my life drastically for 9 months, and then having to go through the pain and agony of child birth after the months of discomfort, already scared me shitless. Like I said, I would've done that (I think), I would've gone for adoption, but..I still am very very very happy I was able to avoid it all together. And then I'm not even touching upon the emotional pain of having to give up your baby for adoption even though you know you cannot care for her and the wondering I imagine you do over the years of what has become of that child you carried inside of you for 9 months.
 

Venom

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I don't really understand this and all the terminology.

Jennifer's post gives some excellent detail:


I think a nice an easy way to convey the concept:
--Master Morality: "might makes right" (think Roman morality)
--Slave Morality: "curb your wants {for the sake of everyone else}, even if you have the power to exercise your wants" (think Christian-Aristotelian/Platonist Morality)

The main point is that epistemologically, neither one is "correct". Societies simply agree to treat one or the other as objective. The degree to which one can exercise either way, is also "agreed upon" in society, with no real "metaphysically prescriptive" right or wrong. The greatest philosophers have largely failed in creating ethical systems that are prescriptively absolutely necessary FOR EVERYONE. There are plenty of systems which can be metaphysically correct, "for you". This is why I am not really a nihilist. I definitely have metaphysical beliefs that are "true for me". Im not relativist about it, I actually believe them to be absolutely necessary and universal "for me". I do not however believe that I can prove all of my beliefs to be prescriptively "true for everyone".

Now for some examples:

Do you see 93% of woman are getting abortions for social reasons!! Not rape, not health issues-SOCIAL ISSUES! This is kind of frightning to me. We're aborting because its inconvenient for us, or because we just dont want the child? I'm gonna be blunt and say that that sounds really selfish.

This is a good example of slave morality: you are expected to curb your wants {for everyone else}, even if you have the power to exercise your wants. People who have the power to get an abortion, and the mindset to not mind getting an abortion, are subjected to what the collective majority thinks is "objectively right". Even though those pro-choice people dont really affect the pro-lifers, the pro-lifers think they need to "restrain" those people who exercise their wants.

EDIT: some might take my commentary here to mean that I would endorse murder. Murder being wrong is something that is metaphysically and prescriptively "true for me". I actually haven't thought about trying to formulate it for being "true for everyone".

{Theology and the State are intimately and historically connected}
Now the connection between theological and political concepts is not in question; what has been hotly contested is the exact nature of that connection.

He gets it. When a society can come together and agree on how it will exercise slave morality (I respectfully say that peguy would probably say 'religion'), thats usually when everyone can agree that something is "objectively right".

As a side note: this explains why someone like Risen, who isnt really even religious, wants the religious ideas to stay. He recognizes that his current conservative world view, only holds "objective" weight, if "everyone" in society holds the same "metaphysically prescriptive" morals of Christianity to be true for themselves. Thus as a collection of individual beliefs that are "true for you", there then can be a prescriptive "true for everyone", within that society.
 
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Sniffles

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No, Peguy..the idea of having to change my life drastically for 9 months, and then having to go through the pain and agony of child birth after the months of discomfort, already scared me shitless. Like I said, I would've done that (I think), I would've gone for adoption, but..I still am very very very happy I was able to avoid it all together. And then I'm not even touching upon the emotional pain of having to give up your baby for adoption even though you know you cannot care for her and the wondering I imagine you do over the years of what has become of that child you carried inside of you for 9 months.

Yes, I can understand much of the emotional pain aspect of the argument here on the part of women, as much as a man possibly can. And I'm not trying to appear heartless or indifferent towards that; indeed it has to be taken account of in any argument of the issue(pro or con).

However, I can't help but stress that it doesn't really prove one way or the other. I mean I've heard all sorts of accounts from women who through the same kind of emotional agony yet still did not have an abortion. And furthermore, will abortion even solve any of the issues you described?
 
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Sniffles

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Well I guess my position can be best summed up by Nietzsche:

"Any truth which threatens life is no truth at all. It is an error."
 

Oaky

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Abortion is a very sad thing... Forcing someone else to die for your own selfishness of wanting an easier life. Someone sees a baby who was just born in front of them. The baby does not yet feel much pain. The baby cannot think. Killing it would almost be the same as an abortion. :(

I wonder how many times someone who would have been this in less than half a year had died.
zooni.jpg
 

Amargith

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Yes, I can understand much of the emotional pain aspect of the argument here on the part of women, as much as a man possibly can. And I'm not trying to appear heartless or indifferent towards that; indeed it has to be taken account of in any argument of the issue(pro or con).

However, I can't help but stress that it doesn't really prove one way or the other. I mean I've heard all sorts of accounts from women who through the same kind of emotional agony yet still did not have an abortion. And furthermore, will abortion even solve any of the issues you described?

Having the choice will at least make you not feel helpless, I think. Also depends on how early it's been done. And what you consider abortion. I've taken the morning after pill, after realizing I'd forgotten my own pill. I always have them in the house, just in case. It made me sick for for a day, and I dunno if I was pregnant..but I did not hesitate to take them. Lot of variables...I would not consider abortion lightly either, it is not exactly the most pleasant procedure and your body does get a shock. But I can imagine it can save you several months of being confronted with it, giving you a chance to move on with your life faster again, I guess. No doubt that women can deal with it without having an abortion but..I dunno, having the choice is somethign I consider very important. It takes away that feeling of helplessness. It makes you feel like you do have control over your own life, even if the choices you face are not exactly great, on the contrary.
 

Lady_X

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Abortion is a very sad thing... Forcing someone else to die for your own selfishness of wanting an easier life. Someone sees a baby who was just born in front of them. The baby does not yet feel much pain. The baby cannot think. Killing it would almost be the same as an abortion. :(

I wonder how many times someone who would have been this in less than half a year had died.
zooni.jpg


:cry:
 
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