Aren't we all racists?

[slant]

I sparked this debate on a different forum....

and yes, Everybody's a little bit racist.

 

[Mole]

It's both. Discrimination takes the second and uses it upon the individual.

I know that racism is commonly thought of as directed at the individual and the group.

But once you accept that racism is a description of a group of people, you get into all kinds of trouble.

For instance the variation within a group is greater than variation between groups. And interestingly this is also true for the groups of men and women.

I think the basic point is that groups are fundamentally different than individuals. I first discovered this with Peter Berger's, "Invitation to Sociology".

Of course each one of us is an individual so we seem to be naturally blind to the nature of groups. However, "Invitation to Sociology", will open your eyes.

 

[Ginkgo]

I sparked this debate on a different forum....

and yes, Everybody's a little bit racist.

Don't spark it again by saying that. I believe "prejudice" is the appropriate term.

 

[slant]

If you don't like the term 'racist' and insist we use euphemisms, fine. But the opinion I hold is still the same.

 

[Charmed Justice]

I'm forced to assume you either can't or won't get this concept, so nevermind.

Perhaps that we just don't agree. Cool.

By "ignoring" I mean simply not considering it a significant difference. I don't mean that we will literally not notice that other people have different skin colors, just that we need a broader cultural shift toward not placing any importance on it.

Broader cultural shift. Phasing out racism on a personal level which will affect the future. I said that too. This has nothing to do with what's happening right now, and has nothing to do with solving the issues of now.
Give me example of how my teaching a 4-year to think of race as insignificant somehow prevents him from having to come face to face with the reality of it every single day? Please. Do that.

You think racism among public school teachers is "quite common", do you? Let's see some backing for that, please.

In any event, if your child's public school teacher is treating him markedly differently out of racial prejudice, it's time to talk to the principal/police/local news. You can take this to court if necessary; I just really don't see why you think public school teachers would show significant patterns of racism, so maybe here is a place where you could provide some statistics that are actually relevant.

How about full on articles and books. Some of these books I read when I was in elementary school to help me understand what I was dealing with. Good reads.
To the bolded, that's a good question to ask.
Racism in America's Schools. ERIC Digest


Facing Racism in Education, Third Edition-Harvard Educational Review, Reprint Series No. 39
Amazon.com: Savage Inequalities: Children in America's Schools (9780060974992): Jonathan Kozol: Books
Amazon.com: The Shame of the Nation: The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America (9781400052455): Jonathan Kozol: Books
Amazon.com: Other People's Children: Cultural Conflict in the Classroom, Updated Edition (9781595580740): Lisa Delpit, Herbert Kohl: Books
Amazon.com: "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?": A Psychologist Explains the Development of Racial Identity (9780465083619): Beverly Daniel Tatum, Beverly Daniel Tatum: Books
Denied:1up! Software ()
South stands alone and more than one of every 10 licks lands in Alabama.

How do you think three little black kids in an otherwise white public school classroom feel when we parade around their differences and shove them in all the children's faces in the name of "celebrating diversity"?

Well, seeing as I was once a black child, I could tell you how I felt. How did you feel as a black child in an otherwise white public school classroom when diversity was celebrated?

If we want to truly integrate people, we can't keep pointing out to our children HEY LOOK THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU! You're just singling them out and making them feel even more awkward and isolated, and you're subconsciously reinforcing the idea that race is a significant distinction. It's not, and we shouldn't be teaching children that it is.

You seem to be minimizing the effects of racism in the classroom to feelings of "awkwardness" and "isolation".

I'm not telling you to ignore him when your kid comes home and asks why someone used a racial slur toward him; I'm just saying this overemphasis on CELEBRATING RACIAL DIVERSITY YAAAAYYYY!!!! is absurd and counterproductive. Progress here will be made, as you said, by slowly phasing out race as a criteria for judgment.

No, I didn't say that actually. I said there are two types of racism that I was addressing: institutional and personally mediated, and they both needed to be addressed. Further, that there were short term and long term changes that needed to take place, and your idea was only tackling one.

I don't see any overemphasis on celebrating racial diversity. How are you quantifying overemphasis?

When we focus on "celebrating racial diversity", we are making racism worse by perpetuating the idea that race should be a criteria for judgment.

Why, in a discussion about racism, is the celebration of diversity your focus? I'm not even disputing your point, I'm just asking you why you think this point is so all important; as if racism stems from a reaction to minorities celebrating diversity. Or are you saying that it's hopeless to tackle racism at the root, so we might as well start cutting down the flimsy branches?

"Ok Timmy now you're white and that's wonderful and great and you should be proud of it...but Jimmy over here is black and that's ALSO wonderful and great and he should be proud of that too!", then you're sending a very mixed message. Children will think, "Wait, if we're supposed to judge people based on their character and not on their race, then why do they keep making such a big deal and telling us to celebrate our differences?"

Well, seeing as I've never heard any parents say the above to their children unless the subject was already at hand and relevant, I can't speak on it. If a parent makes comments like that at random, and out of context, then I would agree with you. But I don't know any parents who do that with their children.

Do you live in 1962?

What is the point of statements like these? First Disco ask if I had been a slave(like that was orginal), and now you with 1962. Seriously, humor me. I'm game.

So go ahead, tell your kid that he's different and special and wonderful for being black, but don't be surprised when he (and his peers) are unable to break down racial barriers between themselves because you've shoved the idea that OMG RACIAL DIVERSITY IS GREAT!!! down their throats from birth.

**sigh**
I don't need to tell my child that he is different, someone else will.
I don't need to tell my child that he is black or mixed, someone else will.
It is my job to tell him he is wonderful, in addition to and in combination with the fact that he is mixed and in most places in this country, recognizably "different".
And no, I will not take responsibility for the hatred of others as a result of my telling him such. Sorry.

You can and should explain some history if and when your child encounters racism in the real world..

I'm glad you approve.

but you should *NOT* create the impression that his race makes him better or worse or any different than anyone else. Being black isn't GREAT AND AWESOME AND WONDERFUL any more than being white is; it's just neutral and insignificant.

Again, on an individual scale this is true. On a societal scale, this is absolutely and entirely false. I refuse to perpetuate the myth in my own home! Agree to disagree.

I am not proud to be white, or male, or American, or blond, or any other random demographics. I'm proud of my accomplishments in life, not random bullshit characteristics over which I have no control. And I certainly hope that if I have children, I will teach them this sort of value system.

I'm with you here. I hope you're honest with your future children about the realities of their peers as well, and the realities of white privilege which they will likely benefit.

Yes, but every adult was at one point an impressionable child, and they had to get the idea that race is a big deal from somewhere--that being from adults at the time who imparted this idea upon them at a young age. So if adults stop raising their children to think that race is a big deal, RACE WILL CEASE TO BE A BIG DEAL.

We've been over this. We don't agree entirely. Cool.

I'm not arguing with you that race is still a big deal, but you've offered absolutely no argument for how to move toward race not being a big deal.

One of the main issues with combating racism in this country is that many whites have never, and still do not believe, that it is even a big deal. For this reason, many fight diversity programs, moves to integrate schools and proms, and see the high arrest of blacks as essentially normal and just.

There is a gigantic disparity in the way whites generally view racism, and the general way in which blacks view it and experience it. Ignorance of reality does not foster a racism free society. I believe in facing and acknowledging racism head on(it's what most minorities have to do as children anyway), in addition to, what you're talking about. For hundreds of years, blacks, other people of color, and many whites, have been trying to unravel the complexity of racism. Let's not get arrogant and pretend like we know all the answers. The issue is complicated on many difficult levels. There isn't one solution.

At least I'm trying to do something about it!

On and off over the past 15 years, I have managed, organized, and participated in a number of different organizations whose aim was to combat racism, and illiteracy, in my community. So I'm trying to do something about it as well. We're on the same page. Thumbs up.

Oh, and here is a good article about perception disparities:Untitled

 

[The Decline]

I know that racism is commonly thought of as directed at the individual and the group.

But once you accept that racism is a description of a group of people, you get into all kinds of trouble.

For instance the variation within a group is greater than variation between groups. And interestingly this is also true for the groups of men and women.

I think the basic point is that groups are fundamentally different than individuals. I first discovered this with Peter Berger's, "Invitation to Sociology".

Of course each one of us is an individual so we seem to be naturally blind to the nature of groups. However, "Invitation to Sociology", will open your eyes.

Racism, as defined in sociological terminology, is a belief system that enables discrimination by social groups, against other groups. Racism itself is not a descriptor, but stereotypes are one form of what you may be referring to. Stereotypes are beliefs and conceptions of groups, and ultimately individuals, and that is where we get generalized depictions of people of a certain race which one can deem racist, since stereotypes also feed into discrimination.

I'm not entirely sure what you understand "racism" to be, but perhaps you should re-read your book. I'll pass on your advice, thank you, because my minor in college was sociology.

 

[FDG]

The southern half of the continental United States has more direct sunlight than Italy. Also, our food products are heavily enriched with Vitamin D. While early childhood nutrition is important for mental development, I don't think the United States is deficient in the relevant nutrients, relative to Europe. Disparities in measured intelligence (in developed nations) are primarily the result of culture and upbringing.

I know about the souther half, that's why I added that tests should be tried only on those that live in the southmost part. I'm sorry to inform you that it's been proven that vitamin-D enriched food are only marginally useful (i.e. they can prevent rickets but not much else) in comparison to direct exposure to sunlight. I didn't speak about nutrients so your other point is irrilevant.

 

[The Decline]

I know about the souther half, that's why I added that tests should be tried only on those that live in the southmost part. I'm sorry to inform you that it's been proven that vitamin-D enriched food are only marginally useful (i.e. they can prevent rickets but not much else) in comparison to direct exposure to sunlight. I didn't speak about nutrients so your other point is irrilevant.

Your assumptions are based on pure conjecture. Care to share a source which backs your claim that IQ is correlated with latitude/sun exposure?

 

[Ginkgo]

Pride can be used to destructive and constructive ends.

For instance, if I was proud of my "heritage", I would therefore be promoting something that was completely and utterly out of my control. This could hypothetically be dangerous, because I would automatically pit myself against other peoples for no other reason other than my place of birth and genetic code. This same concept is applicable to "school pride", "state pride", or nationalism. Promotion of these concepts instigates mob mentalities, which can be dangerous and chaotic.

On the other hand, if an individual were to find himself in an ethically dubious situation, he could tell himself "I am above this. I don't want to disgrace myself or those who I associate with." With this in mind, he would probably be more inclined to adhere to moral codes.

Of course, morality is subjective, but that's just my 2 cents on the notion of "pride".

 

[Risen]

If you want to see some really racist crap, watch Survivor Fiji up to the last episode, then look at the reactions of people (at least on the internet).

 

[lowtech redneck]

I didn't speak about nutrients so your other point is irrilevant.

The only point to sunlight exposure, in regards to the development of human intelligence, is vitamin D, i.e. nutrients. Incidentally, where has it been "proven" that vitamin D supplements only prevent rickets, rather than memory obfuscation?

 

[redacted]

I think race is a hugely divisive issue in our current cultural climate. My solution (very long term), would be similar to simworlds -- that we teach children that different skin color should be factored in just as much as different eye or hair color in terms of categorizing people (as in, not at all). When a child is confronted by racism, explain why the racist's view doesn't make sense and should be ignored (just like if anyone made some irrational silly generalized claim).

Hypothetically, it will eventually (like, after many many iterations of this) become a non-issue this way.

I can't even think of any other way to solve the problem.

 

[FDG]

The only point to sunlight exposure, in regards to the development of human intelligence, is vitamin D, i.e. nutrients. Incidentally, where has it been "proven" that vitamin D supplements only prevent rickets, rather than memory obfuscation?

Look at some research, I can't be bothered to search now, since you were belligerant and not at least open regarding my hypothesis. You need a shitload of supplements of exclusively vitamin D in order to get the same effect of sunlight, 99 percent of people don't use them. I could be wrong, of course, but who cares. A quick example I remember: 'round 35 percent of pakistanis in denmark suffer of very low bone density in spite of vitamin D fortified milk. (ok i got the source: Pakistani immigrant children and adults in Denmark...[Eur J Clin Nutr. 2008] - PubMed Result )

Your assumptions are based on pure conjecture. Care to share a source which backs your claim that IQ is correlated with latitude/sun exposure?

Wat? That wasn't my claim at all, I only that it's totally possible that blacks need an optimal (more than whites) amount of sunlight (wrt to their skin/body) for their mind to be well-functioning. Thus the correct version of my conjecture would be: given a population with X optimal latitude/altitude combination, strong positive (thus, higher) deviations of latitude will have a negative impact on cognitive function, ceteris paribus. OF COURSE it's just my conjecture based on my observations, do you think that everything that humans have done so far was always based on preceeding sources?

 

[The Decline]

OF COURSE it's just my conjecture based on my observations, do you think that everything that humans have done so far was always based on preceeding sources?

It's never a bad idea to stand on the shoulders of giants... if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[FDG]

It's never a bad idea to stand on the shoulders of giants... if you want to be taken seriously.

I never asked for your approval, so...stop tailgating me.

 

[The Decline]

I never asked for your approval, so...stop tailgating me.

Oh sorry, I didn't realize this was a private conversation. I still say the the most prominent explanation for racial discrepancies in IQ between races in America lies in the inequal distribution of education, which is linked to wealth inequalities, which in turn is tied to the correlation of racial wealth inequalities.

 

[FDG]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize this was a private conversation. I still say the the most prominent explanation for racial discrepancies in IQ between races in America lies in the inequal distribution of education, which is linked to wealth inequalities, which in turn is tied to the correlation of racial wealth inequalities.

Nice. It must be lovely to have such a confidence in your own ideas

 

[Risen]

Nice. It must be lovely to have such a confidence in your own ideas

I wish I could have unmitigated confidence in my own ignorance like some people do, but unfortunately, I'm forced to actually assimilate truth and facts when I come across them.

 

[The Decline]

Nice. It must be lovely to have such a confidence in your own ideas

That specific idea is not exactly new, nor my own.

 

[AOA]

We are Prejudiced, indeed. Racism just seems like a folly, or rather much an exaggeration.

... And being Prejudiced is one of the most miserable things about people. Every one is affected by it.