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  1. #91
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Nov 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    However, I think you're overstating and overexaggerating our interdependencies here in an attempt to get me to admit something. I do admit that it is necessary and should be encouraged that we conduct ourselves as responsibly as possible simply because it is in our best interest to do so. You don't trash your house to the point of unsustainability, and we shouldn't do that to earth either. You don't mistreat mice in a lab or monkeys in cognitive experiments and expect good results [unless you're testing the effect of poor treatment on performance].
    Why is there ethical guidelines for the scientifically intended poor treatment of animals? And, why is it much harder to get Ethics approval the 'worse' the treatment manipulation, the researcher aims to conduct?

    If it was merely because of expecting good results, the above two questions would be moot, but they're not. Can you explain why?

    Yet I still do not see how an animal having emotions should change how we deal with them, ethically. As I said yesterday, I don't think those that justified their practices by saying "animals don't have emotions" really ever cared if they had emotions or not, they were just trying to say "they're not humans" in order to not piss PETA off.
    So, for example, scientific research, and the spending of millions of dollars into these research and practices of ethical treatment for animal subjects was just to not piss of PETA? Really? Can you give evidence of this extraordinary claim?

    To be honest, we don't base our ethical treatment of each other based on us having emotions either, human rights are usually argued against biological reasons and classifications like the fact that we are indeed all humans and thus should be treated equally.
    Interesting view you have there, do you know what the main arguments for the justification for slavery was? For the justification of the suppression of women? They're like cattles, they don't have emotions, they can't reason (slaves), and they don't know how to reason as well as men (women's subjugation).

    Claiming oneself to be human didn't matter, claiming the RIGHT to get equal treatment as humans hinged on justifications of emotional capability (slaves) and reason (slaves and women). These 'proofs' were the snowball to recognition of rights.

    Do animal have rights? In the legal sense, no, although there are certain rights of protected species and causing torture, etc...but, as an intrinsic right as humans do? No.

    Can we see how it can be relevant if we start answering questions such as, "Do animals have emotion? Can animals have the capacity to reason?"** to the relevancy of possible changes to ethical treatments of animals? Yes.

    We don't have to be either/or...the moving towards progress (in knowledge) is a worthy goal as well.

    ** Science has shown that on the evolutionary scale, emotion is older than reason and that reason hinges on emotional capacity, so if we answer the emotion q, we are closer to answering the reason q.

    I try to respect life, because it seems like the right thing to do. I guess that's a personal ethic of mine, although I'd consider it more of a general principle. I'm aware of how interconnected everything is, but I don't seem to see it as extreme as you do in that it is in constant danger of crashing down.
    I don't see it as a constant danger of crashing, I was giving a justification of why we may want to care, that of upsetting the balance.

    However, I don't see how animal consumption, animal testing, etc is an inherent disrespect to them, and I don't see how animals having emotions is allowed to confer special respect, moreso than a plant or an insect.
    It is disrespectful to them, but if you are asking why having emotions should be a special priviledge in more consideration of respect? It's not because emotion = automatic respect. That's illogical. However, as I answered to you the first time you asked, it's a question of the philosophy of ethics.

    If we, as humans, are capable of abstract thinking like morality and ethics, can I ask you, why then it shouldn't be a consideration if in the past morality and ethics have repeatedly shown to be hinged on values subscribed through two main characteristics (emotion and reason***)? What makes this question of ethics moot for animals then?

    *** to be able to reason, to not be able to reason - e.g., treatment in history of those with mental illness and/or intellectual disability, points to this, as well. And, ethics answers questions surrounding protection of vulnerability if 'cannot reason as well', etc.

    Blue summed it up way better and much more concisely than I did:
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Of course it's disrespectful, but that's not your argument. Your argument is that the having of emotions or a capacity for suffering is not a legitimate basis for respect.
    I would have to concur. After all, an animal won't think twice about exploiting another species as a resource, why should we?

    I agree with the reasoning, but not with the consequences.

    Compassion doesn't have to be rational.
    And yet, we understand the value of compassion.

  2. #92
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    I know, that's totally what I meant when I said that. Thanks for catching my mistake! :rolli:
    I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning it as in you meant that. I wasn't trying to offend. I just thought that line of yours would be good to show the connection between animals and humans/ aryans and jews. It is just an extension of that.

    "The concentration camps very much resemble the common slaughterhouses of today."

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