MBTI type and belief in god

[greenfairy]

Hindu spirituality has given India the caste system.

I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

[Coriolis]

C'mon, the Ancient Romans killed the Christians in the most horrible ways for refusing to worship the Ancient Roman Gods.

And the Christians in the middle ages tortured and killed anyone they didn't like on pretexts like witchcraft and heresy. Equal opportunity inhumanity.

In my opinion extroverted feelers, and extroverts in general will be more likely to believe in a religious god.

Exactly what is an irreligious god?

I can tell you there have been multiple polls taken at INTPC over the years. The results are a pretty consistent 70%+ non believers. I can't speak to INTJ trends in this regard. I would think they would be similar, but who knows. Their J-ness might make them more impressionable as youths and less prone to shucking off the standard religious indoctrination that N.A. children typically experience.

STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.

 

[Lark]

STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.

Are you serious? That sounds like some sort of reflection of popular love of novelty and all things "alternative", to adopt paganism after abandoning Christianity because of doubts arising from criticial appraisal and questioning is ridiculous, Christianity is in many ways the more rational, scientific successor to the primitive and superstitious precursors described as paganism or paganistic.

Most of that crap is modern revivals for commercial purposes anyway. That's with all due respect for pagans, it'd be a bit like my deciding that popular angels books were true religion Christianity.

 

[Lark]

In my opinion extroverted feelers, and extroverts in general will be more likely to believe in a religious god.

I'd have thought N would have been more important than Extroversion but I am a believer in God, dont know what a religious God is though.

Jung wrote a lot about his own belief in God, it was probably second to his belief in mandalas, archetypes, complexes and collective unconscious though. His writings are very interesting in those respects, although I will swear that they are mind bending and can have incredible effects on your mind if you're in a receptive frame of mind.

 

[Coriolis]

Are you serious? That sounds like some sort of reflection of popular love of novelty and all things "alternative", to adopt paganism after abandoning Christianity because of doubts arising from criticial appraisal and questioning is ridiculous, Christianity is in many ways the more rational, scientific successor to the primitive and superstitious precursors described as paganism or paganistic.

Most of that crap is modern revivals for commercial purposes anyway. That's with all due respect for pagans, it'd be a bit like my deciding that popular angels books were true religion Christianity.

So I take it then that you maintain the opposite of my statement, namely that "This cannot lead NTs either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism."? This makes no sense. I am pointing out in admittedly broad stereotypical strokes how the decision to reject one's childhood faith might play out differently for NTPs vs. NTJs. It says nothing about the many who don't reject that faith.

The highlighted might have some validity with reference to certain manifestations of (pre)historical Paganism, but modern Paganism is quite different, and in many ways more rational and scientific than any form of Christianity. (A large part of why I am a Pagan, BTW.)

 

[Lark]

So I take it then that you maintain the opposite of my statement, namely that "This cannot lead NTs either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism."? This makes no sense. I am pointing out in admittedly broad stereotypical strokes how the decision to reject one's childhood faith might play out differently for NTPs vs. NTJs. It says nothing about the many who don't reject that faith.

The highlighted might have some validity with reference to certain manifestations of (pre)historical Paganism, but modern Paganism is quite different, and in many ways more rational and scientific than any form of Christianity. (A large part of why I am a Pagan, BTW.)

I dont want to appear insulting to you but I do think that seeking to revive paganism after it has been a dead religion for so long is really mistaken.

My views on atheism are the same Francis Bacon's that a little philosophy or knowledge inclinth one to atheism but a lot does the opposite.

http://www.authorama.com/essays-of-francis-bacon-17.html

 

[SensEye]

STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.

Ok, thanks for the insight about INTJs. I actually figured they would tend to share the INTP worldview on this topic.

BTW, if I ever refer to myself as a Pagan, I am just joking about being a non-Christian believer. I don't know anything about actual Paganism and alternate spirituality. In practice I am an agnostic/atheist (agnostic about how the universe came to be, atheistic about any sort of "sky father" as espoused by most mono-theistic human religions). I dismiss all those other alternative spirtitualties as well.

 

[Mole]

I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

Sure, Hindu spirituality gave India the caste system with its Untouchables, and Hindu spirituality gave India a billion dollar industry in superstition.

 

[Mole]

The highlighted might have some validity with reference to certain manifestations of (pre)historical Paganism, but modern Paganism is quite different, and in many ways more rational and scientific than any form of Christianity. (A large part of why I am a Pagan, BTW.)

The last Pagan was Hypatia, the librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, who discovered the Earth went round the Sun.

Modern Pagans have no connection with Hypatia or Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, Pagan Greek mathematics, or Pagan Greek science, or Pagan Greek literature, or Pagan Greek art.

Modern Pagans are an embarrassment to those who love the last great Pagan, Hypatia, and Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, mathematics, science, literature and art.

Modern Pagans are merely part of the New Age superstition, and are all a piece with homeopathy, astrology, alternative medicine and mbti.

 

[Blackmail!]

The last Pagan was Hypatia, the librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, who discovered the Sun went round the Earth.

Modern Pagans have no connection with Hypatia or Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, Pagan Greek mathematics, or Pagan Greek science, or Pagan Greek literature, or Pagan Greek art.

Modern Pagans are an embarrassment to those who love the last great Pagan, Hypatia, and Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, mathematics, science, literature and art.

Modern Pagans are merely part of the New Age superstition, and are all a piece with homeopathy, astrology, alternative medicine and mbti.

Most "pagan Greek science" should rather be called "materialist Greek science". Democritus for instance, didn't believe in Gods at all. Just like Socrates, they were leaving superstition for the "common man".

 

[Mole]

Most "pagan Greek science" should rather be called "materialist Greek science". Democritus for instance, didn't believe in Gods at all. Just like Socrates, they were leaving superstition for the "common man".

Yes, quite so, my dear Blackmail, the Ancient Greeks were the first to recognise that the Gods were natural forces and so they gave birth to science.

 

[Blackmail!]

Yes, quite so, my dear Blackmail, the Ancient Greeks were the first to recognise that the Gods were natural forces and so they gave birth to science.

And that's precisely why the "paganism" of the ancient mediterranean world had nothing in common with New Age "spirituality". Because the Gods they revered were totally material and not spiritual, almost "real" in a certain sense.

Hoper edei deixai!

 

[Coriolis]

The last Pagan was Hypatia, the librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, who discovered the Earth went round the Sun.

Modern Pagans have no connection with Hypatia or Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, Pagan Greek mathematics, or Pagan Greek science, or Pagan Greek literature, or Pagan Greek art.

Modern Pagans are an embarrassment to those who love the last great Pagan, Hypatia, and Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, mathematics, science, literature and art.

Modern Pagans are merely part of the New Age superstition, and are all a piece with homeopathy, astrology, alternative medicine and mbti.

Most Pagans, and I suspect also most historians, will see things otherwise. I suppose it all comes down to how one defines terms.

 

[Coriolis]

I dont want to appear insulting to you but I do think that seeking to revive paganism after it has been a dead religion for so long is really mistaken.

My views on atheism are the same Francis Bacon's that a little philosophy or knowledge inclinth one to atheism but a lot does the opposite.

http://www.authorama.com/essays-of-francis-bacon-17.html

Don't worry - I can tell the difference between an insult and simple disagreement. I am curious, though, as to what you consider "mistaken" about modern Pagans. First, Paganism never totally died out, though it was certainly supplanted in many regions first by Judaism, then Christianity and eventually Islam. Hinduism, for instance, has long been the main religion of India, and is essentially that culture's version of Paganism. Same for the spiritual traditions of many indigenous people like the Native American cultures.

That being said, modern Pagans know better than to attempt to reproduce the religion of millennia ago. Many of us do enjoy the history lesson of studying those times, but with the benefit of modern hindsight, we have far greater understanding of the natural world on many levels than did people in those times, though I do think we have lost some of their understanding. I don't want to derail this thread into another discussion of Paganism. In fact there already is one, if you are really interested in a sampling of what modern Pagans think.

As for Francis Bacon, the first line of this essay is telling:

I HAD rather believe all the fables in the Legend, and the Talmud, and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.

He is going into his investigation with a preconception. Far more than a hypothesis, it is what he wants to think. His arguments support this desire, not necessarily following the facts.

 

[Mole]

The Heir of Pagan Culture

Most Pagans, and I suspect also most historians, will see things otherwise. I suppose it all comes down to how one defines terms.

The historical reality is that it was Christianity in the scriptoriums that keep Ancient Greek Paganism alive.

And it was out of the Christian scriptoriums that the Renaissance sprung.

And the Renaissance was the rebirth of Ancient Greek Pagan culture and learning.

And the Renaissance incorporated Ancient Greek Pagan culture into Christian culture.

So the heir of Pagan culture is Christianity, not the New Age.

 

[Coriolis]

The historical reality is that it was Christianity in the scriptoriums that keep Ancient Greek Paganism alive.

And it was out of the Christian scriptoriums that the Renaissance sprung.

And the Renaissance was the rebirth of Ancient Greek Pagan culture and learning.

And the Renaissance incorporated Ancient Greek Pagan culture into Christian culture.

So the heir of Pagan culture is Christianity, not the New Age.

Greek Paganism is only a small subset of the world's Pagan spiritual paths. It is the scientific and artistic aspects of Greek culture that were preserved in the way you describe. Any spiritual element was not. Even Judaism, the direct precursor of Christianity and the religion of Jesus himself, was not tolerated by the Christian establishment for centuries.

 

[Mole]

Greek Paganism is only a small subset of the world's Pagan spiritual paths. It is the scientific and artistic aspects of Greek culture that were preserved in the way you describe. Any spiritual element was not. Even Judaism, the direct precursor of Christianity and the religion of Jesus himself, was not tolerated by the Christian establishment for centuries.

Please! It is Ancient Greek Pagan philosophy that forms the very basis of Western philosophy.

The spirit of Ancient Greek Pagan philosophy lives in every class of Philosophy 101.

It is New Age Paganism that is not taught in any University. And it is New Age Paganism that has betrayed the Ancient Paganism, and cheapened it, and relegated it to the status of astrology.

The last great Pagan, Hypatia, was an astronomer who rejected astrology as a superstition, just as she would reject the New Age Paganism as superstition.

 

[Coriolis]

Please! It is Ancient Greek Pagan philosophy that forms the very basis of Western philosophy.

The spirit of Ancient Greek Pagan philosophy lives in every class of Philosophy 101.

It is New Age Paganism that is not taught in any University. And it is New Age Paganism that has betrayed the Ancient Paganism, and cheapened it, and relegated it to the status of astrology.

The last great Pagan, Hypatia, was an astronomer who rejected astrology as a superstition, just as she would reject the New Age Paganism as superstition.

More like the philosophy of ancient Greek thinkers, some of whom happened to be Pagans (do we know whether any were even atheists???) We don't characterize people like Kant, Hegel, Rousseau, and Marx as "Christian philosophers". In fact, some were decidedly anti-Christian. A philosopy is not the same as theological doctrine.

 

[Ginkgo]

STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.

I think NTs may very well attempt to take elements of their indoctrination and reconcile them in a logical way. For instance, Marcion of Sinope speculated that the Old Testament depicted a different god than the New Testament did. He attempted to solve an apparent contradiction; if an NT noted the paradoxical nature of the Judeo-Christian notion of God, then perhaps they would try to rectify it by leaning into polytheism. I guess doubt and agnosticism would need to be a precursor for this to happen though.

 

[Mole]

More like the philosophy of ancient Greek thinkers, some of whom happened to be Pagans (do we know whether any were even atheists???) We don't characterize people like Kant, Hegel, Rousseau, and Marx as "Christian philosophers". In fact, some were decidedly anti-Christian. A philosopy is not the same as theological doctrine.

I hope you won't mind too much, Coriolis, if I make a personal comment.

And it is a comment I take from Cricket. It's when a bowler has the measure of the batsman, and we say, the bowler has found his length.

At first you threw me quite off my length, and as you yourself say, you aim to win an argument.

So at first I thought you were a tiger, but it turns out you are a paper tiger.