• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Net-worth and self-worth: what is difference?

coberst

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
336
Net-worth and self-worth: what is difference?

The difference between net worth and self worth to my mind rests on that which is extrinsic and intrinsic to our humanity.

Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:
1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)

I think that the needs 1 thru 3 are extrinsic needs. While needs 4 and 5 are to a large degree intrinsic needs. They are intrinsic in the sense that we can survive without fulfilling such needs but they are needs that will enhance our sense of self worth.

Capitalism tends to accentuate needs 1 thru 3 with little thought to 4 and 5 because such an economic system recognizes little about anything but net worth. Net worth is valuable especially if it allows us to accomplish needs 4 and 5.

“Presupposition that the work of art, as an autonomous organism, stands beside nature on equal terms and, in its deepest essence, devoid of any connection with it, in so far as by nature is understood the visible surface of things.” Wilhelm Worringer author of Abstraction and Empathy
 

Fuulie

New member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
52
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
1,5
I thought that net worth worked in terms of monetary value (or, your value to society as a worker/whatever) and self worth was how valuable you believe yourself to be (in the abstract, not in terms of money). But I may well be confused, as I frequently am.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
777
MBTI Type
ESFP
It looks like you pointed out the differences on your own already. Maybe that's why you don't have very many responses. Good show however, I certainly appreciated it.
 

coberst

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
336
My point is that capitalism tends to form an ideology focused upon net worth without consideration about self-worth. Cultural anti-intellectualism is an example. Our educational system teaches us the things that we need to know in order to help maximize production and consumption with little regard for teaching us what we need to know to establish self-esteem beyond the acquisition of consumer goods. Our educational system does not produce graduates who are prepared to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals.
 

Katsuni

Priestess Of Syrinx
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
1,238
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3w4?
Many people honestly believe their net worth IS their self worth... if they aren't rich, they aren't worth anything.

Or taken to greater extreemes, why is it if someone has a billion dollars networth, that they continue to try to make more money? Does that money help them in any way? Not really. Could they have provided that money to someone who could use it better? Yeah they could've. Did they? Nope. Why not? Because it defines who they are. They are the net value, and nothing more. It is their success, their power, their strength, their fidelity. Without it, they are nothing. To loose it all would cripple them.

Others can live in poverty and still care for who they are as a person, however.

That being said, I think #3 on the list is also self-worth, not net worth. Having people care about yeu is rather important to maintaining the last two generally. There are direct influences from both aspects; no self esteem generally kills yeur love life. No love life kills yeur self esteem eventually. There's exceptions and so on but they are connected for the most part.

In any case, capitalism is flawed, like every societal concept. It doesn't matter which one, they're all flawed from the ground up.

The biggest issue though, is that there aren't any capitalistic countries in the world to be able to compare to. The USA is a socialist nation, they just don't know it because they refuse to learn whot the word means due to paranoia.

In any case, 'capitalism, communism and socialism' are MONETARY modes of thought... none of them have anything to do with the latter parts of the 'pyramid', only the monetary aspects. Anything past that yeu're on yeur own.

Except countries are ruled by the values of the majority, and they often try to force their opinions of love, life and sexuality and so on upon everyone else. That's not related to the monetary methods of thought however. This happens regardless.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
777
MBTI Type
ESFP
My point is that capitalism tends to form an ideology focused upon net worth without consideration about self-worth. Cultural anti-intellectualism is an example. Our educational system teaches us the things that we need to know in order to help maximize production and consumption with little regard for teaching us what we need to know to establish self-esteem beyond the acquisition of consumer goods. Our educational system does not produce graduates who are prepared to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals.

Yep you are right, ever heard of the book "the deliberate dumbing down of america"?


[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhrxy0IB0k"][YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhrxy0IB0k"][/YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Errm isn't Maslow's hierarchy personal and capitalism global? I mean isn't that like comparing and contrasting two systems that don't apply to the same arena?
 

coberst

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
336
Errm isn't Maslow's hierarchy personal and capitalism global? I mean isn't that like comparing and contrasting two systems that don't apply to the same arena?

I would say that Maslow's needs apply universally to all persons and capitalism applies to all individuals within the nation that has that economic system.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I would say that Maslow's needs apply universally to all persons and capitalism applies to all individuals within the nation that has that economic system.
Lol... yes by extension one is applied to the other but still Maslow is addressing the individuals priorities where as capitalism is addressing the needs and priorities of the organisiation.

I don't argue that there are differences, I'm merely postulating that such could be attributed, in majority, to this difference in address.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Net-worth and self-worth: what is difference?

The difference between net worth and self worth to my mind rests on that which is extrinsic and intrinsic to our humanity.

Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:
1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)

I think that the needs 1 thru 3 are extrinsic needs. While needs 4 and 5 are to a large degree intrinsic needs. They are intrinsic in the sense that we can survive without fulfilling such needs but they are needs that will enhance our sense of self worth.

Capitalism tends to accentuate needs 1 thru 3 with little thought to 4 and 5 because such an economic system recognizes little about anything but net worth. Net worth is valuable especially if it allows us to accomplish needs 4 and 5.

“Presupposition that the work of art, as an autonomous organism, stands beside nature on equal terms and, in its deepest essence, devoid of any connection with it, in so far as by nature is understood the visible surface of things.” Wilhelm Worringer author of Abstraction and Empathy
I don't know if I agree entirely with your opinion that Capitalism doesn't contribute to the fulfilling of needs 4 & 5. It's a bit of a stretch to say that Capitalism fulfills need # 3, so I think that if you can stretch that far for 3, you can definitely stretch that far for 4 & 5.

When a person develops a business of their own, provides a product or service to others and successfully supports themselves and their family through that business, I think Capitalism has GREATLY contributed to needs # 4 & 5!

But when I say Capitalism, I mean honest capitalism where honest work is offered for a fair price, not dishonest capitalism where someone is just taking advantage of others and milking them for all they've got.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
My point is that capitalism tends to form an ideology focused upon net worth without consideration about self-worth. Cultural anti-intellectualism is an example. Our educational system teaches us the things that we need to know in order to help maximize production and consumption with little regard for teaching us what we need to know to establish self-esteem beyond the acquisition of consumer goods. Our educational system does not produce graduates who are prepared to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals.

Is it the job of our educational system to teach kids 'to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals' or is it a parent's job?

(I actually agree with the point of view you're presenting, I'm just curious of what your answer might be.)
 

coberst

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
336
Is it the job of our educational system to teach kids 'to become self-actualizing independent critical thinking well adjusted individuals' or is it a parent's job?

(I actually agree with the point of view you're presenting, I'm just curious of what your answer might be.)

Parents were not taught the things that I consder to important and thus they cannot teach their children what they themselves do not comprehend.

I think that it is the job of our educational system to prepare young people for a productive and satisfying life while still accepting their responsibilities as citizens and as moral creatures.

To accomplish this daunting task we must stop our present attitude, which is to prepare young people only to become useful in maximizing production and consumption.

A fundamental aspect for fulfilling this task is to teach young people not just what to think but how to think. This means that young people be taught CT (Critical Thinking) as a minimum.
 

coberst

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
336
But when I say Capitalism, I mean honest capitalism where honest work is offered for a fair price, not dishonest capitalism where someone is just taking advantage of others and milking them for all they've got.

Capitalism does not have the means to be honest, it can be honest only to the extent that the government create laws that force this kind of behavior. Capitalism does not contain a moral aspect but encourages only selfish behavior.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Ye gads, I didn't realise you were advocating free thought!!

As was pointed out to me before, free thinking on a large scale is not really possible. You get the Brian complex.

Brian "You're all individuals"
Crowd "We're all individuals"
Individual "I'm not"

Look at punk, it advocated challenging the system but instead spawned yet another fashion. People don't want their eyes opened and they certainly don't want children who ask too many questions. They want compliant, obedient wage slaves... that's what keeps the system going.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Capitalism does not have the means to be honest, it can be honest only to the extent that the government create laws that force this kind of behavior. Capitalism does not contain a moral aspect but encourages only selfish behavior.
I understand that your point of view is prevalent right now, but I do not share it.

Law is wholly inadequate at making people honest or moral or ethical. People must already BE honest, moral and ethical when they come to the table.

Neither do I believe that Capitalism "encourages" "only" selfish behavior. There have been many moral and honest businesspeople down through the years. Indeed, we wouldn't have gotten this far without them.

That is a very fatalistic view of Capitalism, and with such philosophy being spoon-fed to people, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that that very attitude has engendered even MORE dishonesty and selfishness.

"selfish"... and what's NOT selfish? Communism?! Pah!

At least Capitalism encourages human industry and ingenuity.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
No business philosophy encourages honesty... they wouldn't make any money... well aside from kookie theories which may work once...
 

Halla74

Artisan Conquerer
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
6,898
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
The two are mutually exclusive.

I know plenty of wealthy people with low self esteem.

I know plenty of everyday Joes who are fully sefl actualized.

I know wealthy self actualized folks, and I know status quo folks who hate themselves.

:D
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Net-worth and self-worth: what is difference?

The difference between net worth and self worth to my mind rests on that which is extrinsic and intrinsic to our humanity.

Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:
1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)
2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)
3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)
4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)
5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)

I think that the needs 1 thru 3 are extrinsic needs. While needs 4 and 5 are to a large degree intrinsic needs. They are intrinsic in the sense that we can survive without fulfilling such needs but they are needs that will enhance our sense of self worth.

Capitalism tends to accentuate needs 1 thru 3 with little thought to 4 and 5 because such an economic system recognizes little about anything but net worth. Net worth is valuable especially if it allows us to accomplish needs 4 and 5.

This OP reminds me of something I read once, I think it was in Discipline & Punish by Michel Foucault. If I’m remembering it correctly- Foucault proposed there was a cultural shift in attitude towards individual human rights, sometime around 17th century (?), wherein it suddenly became ‘cruel and unusual’ to inflict bodily harm on a person. It had been routine to punish a person by disemboweling them (or some similar gruesome form of torture) right out in the center of a public place. A movement to protect an individual’s rights arose from it, but (according to Foucault) it was short-sighted in that it was focused on protecting an individual’s extrinsic rights. It became unacceptable to torture a person’s corporeal body- yet very little attention (if any) was paid to torture inflicted on someone’s mind. The concept that it was possible to hurt someone’s ‘mind’ wasn’t even close to being recognized.

Anyway- Foucault believed this accounted for our present day short-sightedness in regard to ‘human rights’. There’s a strong bias in favor of the phrase ‘human rights’ to indicate extrinsic human needs, and intrinsic human needs are often deemed superfluous. There needs to be a shift in social consciousness towards accepting those intrinsic human needs as being an inherent component of ‘human rights’.

Capitalism does not contain a moral aspect but encourages only selfish behavior.

Capitalism does not encourage selfish behavior, people encourage selfish behavior. Social mores encourage/discourage selfish behavior. Granted: selfish behaviors thrive in capitalism. But then again, selfish behaviors will thrive wherever social mores don’t totally condemn someone for behaving selfishly.

Replacing capitalism with another system will not, in itself, incite that needed shift in the collective social consciousness. Not IMO.

Though I wholly agree with you in the sentiment that our public school system really, really needs to put more focus on critical thinking skills and far less focus on being a ‘productive worker’. At the very least, more & more people are recognizing this. And it’s also heartening, I think, that home-schooling seems to be on the rise.
 

coberst

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
336
Z Buck

I think that it was not the 17th century but the 18th century, the Age of Enlightenment, in which we changed our focus from God and the hereafter to humans and the here and now. It was the begining of humanism.
 
Top