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When someone refuses logic?

r.a

meat popsicle
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Jul 4, 2009
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496
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STFU
Is logic inherent within the universe, or is it simply our way of describing patterns that seem to occur in nature?

in the human, rational sense it is a way to describe things, but there has to be different levels of logic beyond our intelligence or perception. to place limits on anything is to cheat ourselves out of growth and evolution.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Is logic inherent within the universe, or is it simply our way of describing patterns that seem to occur in nature?

You're asking a Te user?

What's the difference between patterns we seem to see and actual order?

If institutionalised too deep in one's philosophy, the worry that we can't actually know enough to know if we know enough does at some point end up creating such a burden of bizarre and upsetting language longcuts--postmodernism, for example--that perhaps sometimes it's worth it just to get it over with and say, I know what reality is. One day we bite the bullet and accept to induct over the gaps.

It's not for everyone. And if everyone actually did it we'd all be the dumber for it. But it's something to think about anyway.
 

sculpting

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You're asking a Te user?

What's the difference between patterns we seem to see and actual order?

If institutionalised too deep in one's philosophy, the worry that we can't actually know enough to know if we know enough does at some point end up creating such a burden of bizarre and upsetting language longcuts--postmodernism, for example--that perhaps sometimes it's worth it just to get it over with and say, I know what reality is. One day we bite the bullet and accept to induct over the gaps.

It's not for everyone. And if everyone actually did it we'd all be the dumber for it. But it's something to think about anyway.

I like.
 

Kalach

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The Te Way: it's such a slippery slope down to false certainty.

And it's why I can never again take myself seriously as a philosopher.
 

Frank

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Mar 13, 2008
Messages
689
What's funny is that Js wonder the same thing about you for valuing internal logical consistency over external goal/schedule completion.

That's the difference--the fact that you don't organize your external world into structured, scheduled, digestible pieces is just as illogical to Js as it is to you that they refuse to logically structure their inner worlds.

They don't need internal logic because they're too busy applying logic to their external schedules and goals.

Very true. Pretty much anything goes in my internal world. It is ,in a sense, uncontrolled with theories and insights arising from what appears to be nothing. The external world is much easier to control, predict and manipulate.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
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No he doesn't *have* to follow logic, but making up stories isn't philosophy.

Most people are not interested in the truth. They would like to believe in whatever they want to believe in. The fact that organized religion has been as influential as it is today is signatory of how highly represented people of this ilk are in our society.

Your friend is one step ahead of most people. His logical reasoning skills are developed enough to enable him to make a coherent statement about the nature of his reasoning. Specifically, he is able to say that he does not care about making any sense. The thoughts of most people are too vague and confused to communicate with this kind of clarity.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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Jun 20, 2009
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ESFP
No he doesn't *have* to follow logic, but making up stories isn't philosophy.

Sure it is, the MATRIX is a great example of a made up story based on the philosophical allegory of Plato's cave.

You with your empirical/materialistic attitude share the common western philosophy built upon aristotle's beliefs that the universe is logical.
 

47Alpha

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Aug 18, 2009
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SOMEONE....REFUSING LOGIC ????
Welcome to my world. More than ever I am amazed at what one part of our mind keeps another part from seeing.
Creating an entity that lives and lies to itself often, as it lives and breathes. Two Hemispheres or something else.
Individuals these days I actually view as PAIRS
Siamese-Twins all of us upstairs.
 

Take Five

Supreme Allied Commander
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Aug 26, 2008
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Only a fool argues with a crazy man. Only a crazy man argues with a fool.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Jun 29, 2007
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4,517
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here's what you do.
test him.
put him on the edge of a cliff and tell him to jump off.
if he refuses, ask why.
when he inevitably gives a logical response, rub it in his face.

if not, the annoying bastard is jumping out of your life.
 

run

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Kalach

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Well see, that's just you guys being Ti slap happy. He's INFJ, so his Ti is there to bring sufficiency to his feeling about what's there, but more importantly to let him escape from anyone bounding his feeling by "truth". Thus, he uses reason to say he doesn't need to use reason. See? He's saying it's true that he doesn't have to say any particular thing is truely true. (Because feeling is the true guide, not truth.) Thus, as you should rightly point out, by his rule, there is no truth to feeling. He will presumably agree with this, saying that, sure, there is no truth to feeling, just the feeling of the feeling and that is compelling enough. And if he has any guts at all, he will after some time allow that indeed he has for many years now been working out the true relationships between feelings, and he's gotten pretty good at it, but he just doesn't want to come right out and say what he believes is true, not until someone generates the right feeling test for him, by perhaps for example, mocking his values as hard as he's mocking yours.


INFJs, pfft. Nancys.
 

sculpting

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you know Kalach,

I have noticed something odd as of late-you pointed this out awhile back. Sorry folks I am taking a meta view of this thread and mixing it with lots of other stuff.

K pointed out you should be very careful when you take folks-like INFJs, ENTPs, ENFPs or any others who mix the judging functions as thier middle two preferred cognitive functions.

In that argument it was with respect to pure logic vs pure feeling and if I recall K suggested only observing Fe/Fi doms or Te/Ti doms as us folks in the middle, likely cant seperate things as cleanly.

So letely-sort of like what you see with this INFJ-I notice my brain can come to two endpoints on a topic-The Te answer and the Fi answer. They are in conflict, yet both are "right" in my mind.

My bestf entp, even more oddly, says this has happened to her as of late as well-an Fi answer and a Ti answer which are in conflict-yet both are "right".

It's like having your brain split with an axe. So maybe this guy does this-maybe he can see the "right" Fe answer, acknowledge the Ti inconsistancy, and be okay with that result in his own mind-even though logically inconsistant?
 

Kalach

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Well, I'll tell you what I find interesting, and a tad upsetting, it's that Te users approach this issue really differently from, I guess, Ti users. The Te user will start talking about what's going on between the people or inside the person, and not talk too much about the actual issue, namely, is there a reasoned answer to the rejection of reason. A hypothesis is posited, namely that one can take whatever position one on whim chooses, and the answer is... nothing?

Pragmatically we can know that the INFJ is merely announcing an ENTP position, thus forcing any ENTPs in the vicinity to start investigating the roots of truth, which will end up being feeling, I guess, and then everyone's back on INFJ turf and the INFJ gets to speak their real piece.

So... I dunno. What is the Ti users' real answer to their own quite common claim that nothing is ultimately true?

(And is the world really that divided into X-users and Y-users, so much so that the X side normally can't provide a satisfactory answer to the Y side, and vice versa?? What a crock!)



(And on the other issue, yeah, I suppose it is quite common for people with two judgment functions as number 2 and 3 to mix up the language, using feeling language to talk argue and argument language to feel. I guess. Or maybe everyone does that too? An INFJ I know once retorted that she wasn't that interested in feeling, it was truth she sought!)
 
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