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Trying to have a logical convo with a fundamentalist.

Thalassa

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See, i don't agree here. I never noticed christianity to have some identifiable internal logic. There's a very clear wall between the teachings and observed behavior and the teachings are often lacking congruence. There's also no clear way to identify which teachings will be used as they appear and which will be considered to be metaphorical.

And last but not least, there's no way to know what principles are used to judge which rule is to be applied and which rule is to be dismissed. Yet, the religion always uses for example, their holy books or some other reposits of the religious teachings AS the moral compass to be used.

This is paradoxical. And absurd.

I just see no way anybody could honestly defend such a cyclic reasoning.

Have you ever read Mere Christianity? CS Lewis was a highly logical, NT ex-atheist who argued rationally for Christianity.
 

Usehername

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he also wrote fantasy books

So that would be a "no" then, correct? It's illogical to presume that someone who can write fantasy is an individual who cannot engage logic; the two are not mutually exclusive. And his books were intended to be allegories, i.e. he intentionally wrote them as a different method to reach a different audience.

Mere Christianity is analogous to the high school prereqs that allow you to get into the university courses, and by the 3000 or 4000 level you're finally able to see just how bottomless the depth of exploration that is possible really is. That book is Lewis' radio interview answers in text form.

Lewis is just one well-known Christian apologist; Augustine is another from a different century, and the list of respected Christian intellectuals is long. MIT's head of Nuclear Physics and Engineering is a notable speaker for the faith, if you're looking into the non-religious-profession world.

But if you haven't read a few books from some of the great thinkers in Christianity, how can you refute the logic of the religion? You don't even know what it is you're arguing against.
 

Wiley45

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Sometimes this type of conversation is not a waste of time. But you have to be talking to a person who is willing to learn and be open, and you have to be patient.

I was an extreme fundamentalist Christian (though I read a lot of apologetics stuff and could explain myself a little better than the guy in the OP.) My INTP friend kept at me like this for a couple of years, though I have to say, the majority of the time he was respectful and tried to avoid frustrating me.

He got me to the point where I could see what was illogical about my thinking, and start from 0. And then he left me alone to work it out for myself. Now, I don't even believe the same way he does, but I'm extremely grateful that he spent so much time with me, when I'm sure I was insanely frustrating. I don't think he cared about converting me to his belief system as much as he wanted me to be able to learn to think for myself.

I think the main reason he talked to me, though, was because in our initial conversations he could tell I had really thought through some issues. Even though I hadn't thought them through far enough, I think it showed him that I was at least capable of going further with a little prodding. He never wastes his time talking to people who spout him a line they heard in Sunday School and haven't taken the time to study things for themselves.

I might add that the first time he finally asked me a question I couldn't answer, I spent the entire night shaking and vomiting because it was too much for me to handle such a huge shift in my world view, especially after I had banked everything in my life on it. Later in the process, I came perilously close to killing myself. He got me through it and out to the other side where I was not in such a fog, but this is serious stuff to a lot of people. So take it seriously, please.
 

Athenian200

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You know, I wonder... why is it that whenever someone complains about having a logical conversation with a fundamentalist, they were always talking about religion with them? Personally, I'm curious as to how a fundamentalist would perform at dealing with a logical conversation about something unrelated to religion. Would they still suck at it then? Or is their narrow view of religion the only logical flaw in their worldview?

I mean, what if you talked about... mathematics, chemistry, or the economy, for instance?
 

Wiley45

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To a fundamentalist, religion is involved in everything. Science, education, medicine, politics, art, and even the parking spot I got at the mall. Kind of makes it difficult to separate "nonreligious" things in order to have a rational conversation. Math, maybe. The economy ... I still hear all sorts of religious reasons from my fundie friends about why the economy is the way it is, so I'm gonna call that as a no go.
 

Athenian200

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To a fundamentalist, religion is involved in everything. Science, education, medicine, politics, art, and even the parking spot I got at the mall. Kind of makes it difficult to separate "nonreligious" things in order to have a rational conversation. Math, maybe. The economy ... I still hear all sorts of religious reasons from my fundie friends about why the economy is the way it is, so I'm gonna call that as a no go.

I... can't really comprehend that. My parents believed in God, read the Bible, prayed at night, and they freak out about things like Tarot card and Quija boards, but they didn't even care strongly enough to go to church, or see everything as related to religion. It was just a part of their lives that they invoked whenever there was a crisis, birth, death, or a holiday, and ignored the rest of the time. Basically, it was just a ritual to signify things of importance.

I mean, how could you live your whole life around one thing, especially one thing that you can't even... see? I don't just mean religion, I mean... well, anything. Technology, dating, philosophy, writing, music (though those are more understandable because you can see their effects)... some people live their whole lives around one thing, and that seems strange to me. I guess I've just always felt this natural need to segment things off, have different parts of my life that can interact, but don't necessarily.
 

EcK

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What exactly do you mean by "rationally"?

See, i love how people confuse close circuit logic with rationality which tends to have the silly habit of empiricism.

That was my point btw, about the fantasy books.
So that would be a "no" then, correct? It's illogical to presume that someone who can write fantasy is an individual who cannot engage logic; the two are not mutually exclusive. And his books were intended to be allegories, i.e. he intentionally wrote them as a different method to reach a different audience.

Mere Christianity is analogous to the high school prereqs that allow you to get into the university courses, and by the 3000 or 4000 level you're finally able to see just how bottomless the depth of exploration that is possible really is. That book is Lewis' radio interview answers in text form.
But ofc usehername assumed I didn't have her incredible gift for second degree.

Lewis is just one well-known Christian apologist; Augustine is another from a different century, and the list of respected Christian intellectuals is long. MIT's head of Nuclear Physics and Engineering is a notable speaker for the faith, if you're looking into the non-religious-profession world.

But if you haven't read a few books from some of the great thinkers in Christianity, how can you refute the logic of the religion? You don't even know what it is you're arguing against.
And btw, i followed college theology courses. Since you seem to be deeply impressed by degrees and college curriculums, as any rational and self made lady should be. Ofc. (Let's play 'can you spot the sarcasm')
 

Quinlan

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Serious question, who is more badass OT god or the Devil?
 

EcK

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Serious question, who is more badass OT god or the Devil?
I believe observable existence or proof of any activity or even place in the universe to be a major asset on the road to badassness.

but maybe it's just me
 

Quinlan

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I believe observable existence or proof of any activity or even place in the universe to be a major asset on the road to badassness.

but maybe it's just me

I dunno, hearsay and rumour tends to increase badassness by a factor of 5.
 

Laurie

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Serious question, who is more badass OT god or the Devil?

OT God. Devil didn't play too many parts in it.

What does CS Lewis writing fantasy books have to do with his ability to be logical?

Many people underestimate the experiences of a lot of Christians. I shock people when I tell them my mom is an atheist and skeptic. I grew up with her being very outright negative toward Christianity. There is nothing anyone can say that can phase me, I've heard it all from my own mom. Luckily we both grew up and don't have that issue anymore.

On the other hand, because of that, I've learned who is actually wanting to talk about beliefs and who just wants to feel superior to someone with a "belief"
 

Wiley45

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I mean, how could you live your whole life around one thing, especially one thing that you can't even... see? I don't just mean religion, I mean... well, anything. Technology, dating, philosophy, writing, music (though those are more understandable because you can see their effects)... some people live their whole lives around one thing, and that seems strange to me. I guess I've just always felt this natural need to segment things off, have different parts of my life that can interact, but don't necessarily.

I think my family's belief system helps them feel that they have meaning in life, and they're important, so it is naturally part of everything they think and do. It's hard to see past that or get out of it if it's all you've ever known and it's been drilled into you from the time you were an infant. My parents feel God is the entire reason we live, so serving God should be the reason for everything we do. Their particular view of serving God is different from many other Christians I know, though. (And I don't have a problem with all Christians. *Hugs Christians in this discussion thread.*) :)

Strange is a good word for it, Athenian. Mild, maybe, but adequate.
 

Totenkindly

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To a fundamentalist, religion is involved in everything. Science, education, medicine, politics, art, and even the parking spot I got at the mall. Kind of makes it difficult to separate "nonreligious" things in order to have a rational conversation. Math, maybe. The economy ... I still hear all sorts of religious reasons from my fundie friends about why the economy is the way it is, so I'm gonna call that as a no go.

Yup, everything is about God, and thus any decision has to be based on one's faith, which is ordered by the prevailing theology. This is actually an attempt by religious to be faithful, true, loyal, and not withhold any part of themselves from God; since it's actually a positive intention, it makes it harder to enter into discussion without sounding like you're against someone being faithful to their values.
 

Usehername

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See, i love how people confuse close circuit logic with rationality which tends to have the silly habit of empiricism.

That was my point btw, about the fantasy books.

But ofc usehername assumed I didn't have her incredible gift for second degree.


And btw, i followed college theology courses. Since you seem to be deeply impressed by degrees and college curriculums, as any rational and self made lady should be. Ofc. (Let's play 'can you spot the sarcasm')

What does "second degree" mean? I used the university analogy as, quote, an "analogy." Level of formal education is irrelevant; level of informed education is relevant. You implied you had little of the latter, and that's what I referenced.

Also, your posts presume I know what you're thinking in your head, which I don't, especially because this is the first time I've noticed you on the forum. If you could flesh out your positions a little more you'd be easier to understand, rather trying to interpret your terse and fragmented thoughts.
 

EcK

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What does "second degree" mean? I used the university analogy as, quote, an "analogy." Level of formal education is irrelevant; level of informed education is relevant. You implied you had little of the latter, and that's what I referenced.
You mean you talk to god ? Otherwise I don't see how anybody could have anything else than a formal education when it comes to theology.
You don't even understand your own implications.:sleeping:
Also, your posts presume I know what you're thinking in your head, which I don't, especially because this is the first time I've noticed you on the forum. If you could flesh out your positions a little more you'd be easier to understand, rather trying to interpret your terse and fragmented thoughts.
I'm sorry, I tend to assume i'm talking to able minded individuals. You don't explain how you open doors to people, do you ? Well, the same goes for what's implied by what I say, if you don't get it well, your loss, I just can't bring myself to care. sowy
 

stellar renegade

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For example, I have read the bible front to back and the best way to describe it would be.
God loves you, if you love god. If you dont, you deserve to die and burn in hell, be you man, woman, or child.

So God is Selective Love

Unless of course you make the arguement he loves us even though we are in hell, then the debate would be on what you define love as.

Where did you read that unless you love God you will find yourself in hell?
 

Wiley45

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Loving God = Keeping God's commandments.

"Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." - John 14:21

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3a


Not Keeping God's commandments results in Punishment, Separation, Destruction, & Death.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." -Exodus 20:4-6 (Part of the Ten Commandments)

"... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9
 
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