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Parenting Philosophies/The Role of Children In Society

Charmed Justice

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We are a no-spanking(or punishment for that matter) family. We believe that children have rights, and should be treated with the same level of respect as adults. We don't expect perfection, and when mistakes are made(or things are done in our home that we disapprove of), we discuss the issue, and try to work out a solution that suits us all. My husband is an ISTJ traditionalist, but he and I agree on parenting. We also have fairly radical views on schooling, and our children will likely attend a Sudbury school, where they can choose to learn what they wish, at their own pace.

What correlations are their between type and parenting style/philosophy? How do you guys view the role of children in society?
 

Mole

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How do you guys view the role of children in society?

The work of children is play.

And the purpose of play is to learn the distinction between imagination and reality.

Once we learn the distinction we are free to imagine ourselves in the real world.
 

kyuuei

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:laugh: Very different from the household I grew up in, Fer. Just take that and pull a 180, and you'll have my household.

I have no plans for kids.. but I am a third wheel parent for my sister, and I try to correct the things that I disliked when I was growing up in our household. My sister's got it pretty decent if I do say so myself.

The role of children is to become functioning adults in society, imo. Why else be a parent but to help the next generation grow up and hopefully be better off than you were?? How well they do function is up to the parents and the personalities the children themselves.

I don't believe children have the same respect as adults.. Because they aren't. I give the same amount of respect, but it's not the same kind.

I'm not gonna say no-spanking wasn't a part of my house. it was a HUGE part of it growing up, and I came out just fine. But I'm more fond of creative punishments, especially when they become too old to spank. (example: Taking the door away to their room when they lie about what they're doing in their room..)
 

Quinlan

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I think the most powerful thing you do is set a good example.
 

Charmed Justice

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I don't believe children have the same respect as adults.. Because they aren't. I give the same amount of respect, but it's not the same kind.

Thanks for the response there! Are you saying you don't believe that children should have the same respect? Do you believe that age merits respect?

I'm not gonna say no-spanking wasn't a part of my house. it was a HUGE part of it growing up, and I came out just fine.

Spanking was a huge part of my childhood as well. I'd like to think that I turned out ok inspite of it, not as a result. Do you think spanking helped you to become a good person?

The work of children is play.

And the purpose of play is to learn the distinction between imagination and reality.

I am with you on this one Victor.
 

Ivy

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Taking Children Seriously?
 

MonkeyGrass

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I'm definitely NOT TCS...I think children generally need structure and guidance in order for everyone not to be miserable all the time.

That said, we're non-punitive, which, of course, includes not spanking. I'm noticing that my kids are internalizing values earlier than I did (I was spanked), and my theory is that it's because they're not simply towing the line out of fear. They're free to make mistakes, and then learn from them, as opposed to learning to simply keep the big person happy.
 

Ivy

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I'm definitely NOT TCS...I think children generally need structure and guidance in order for everyone not to be miserable all the time.

That said, we're non-punitive, which, of course, includes not spanking. I'm noticing that my kids are internalizing values earlier than I did (I was spanked), and my theory is that it's because they're not simply towing the line out of fear. They're free to make mistakes, and then learn from them, as opposed to learning to simply keep the big person happy.

Same here MonkeyGrass. I think structure and guidance can be achieved respectfully, though. To be honest, sometimes the best way to show respect is to be honest and let someone know when they're out of line. I would do the same for an adult if it affected me.

I'm finding this style of parenting a lot harder to implement with my son, who has some characteristics of high-functioning autism and just isn't as easy to reason with as my daughter. But I just cannot spank for my own sake, if not only for his. I have spanked in moments of frustration, usually when I've backed myself into a corner. I always put myself in a time-out and apologize, as I would expect of him if he hit someone. (We try to make time-out non-punitive by either going with them and helping them calm down if they're simply overstimulated, or making it clear that it's good for everyone to take a little break once in awhile.)
 

cafe

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I don't believe respect and clear lines of authority are mutually exclusive. A boss at your job can assign you tasks respectfully or disrespectfully and a parent can do the same thing.

We spanked our kids when they were too young to be effectively reasoned with. It is quick, simple, and can be effective for canceling behaviors you don't want repeated. At our house putting yourself in danger (getting out of car seat, running toward the street), hurting someone, defiant behavior could merit a spanking -- a couple of stinging swats on a thigh or behind with a wooden spoon.

Like kyuuei, I believe the role of children is ultimately to become functioning adults. They should be allowed to experience the consequences of their choices as much as possible, but also held to standards of behavior.

For us that means that our children are allowed to voice their opinions and be listened to, but they need to do it in a reasonably polite tone. We expect to be obeyed, but are understanding about forgetting, etc within reason.

We really don't have a ton of rules, but school is a priority and I try to help them with organization/removing distractions if they are having problems.

Once homework and what few chores they have are done, they are free to watch TV, play video games, read, draw, make stuff, use a computer if one is open.

I have to say that I am pleased with the results I'm seeing so far. Not only do I respect them on principle because they are my fellow human beings, I like and respect them because of the kind of people they are: kind, ethical, intelligent, and funny.
 

Charmed Justice

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Same here MonkeyGrass. I think structure and guidance can be achieved respectfully, though. To be honest, sometimes the best way to show respect is to be honest and let someone know when they're out of line. I would do the same for an adult if it affected me.

I'm finding this style of parenting a lot harder to implement with my son, who has some characteristics of high-functioning autism and just isn't as easy to reason with as my daughter. But I just cannot spank for my own sake, if not only for his. I have spanked in moments of frustration, usually when I've backed myself into a corner. I always put myself in a time-out and apologize, as I would expect of him if he hit someone. (We try to make time-out non-punitive by either going with them and helping them calm down if they're simply overstimulated, or making it clear that it's good for everyone to take a little break once in awhile.)

No, we're not into TCS either, although I completely respect those people who are. I'm just not that evolved and my emotional resources don't stretch that far.

We take breaks, as a family, when things get out of hand. Nothing punitive though. And when I do things that I know go against my own value system, like yelling in anger, I apologize as well. My mother, an ESTJ, would never dream of apologizing to me. In her opinion, the parent is always right, even when they are wrong. Her contradictory positions(and the ironies of the adult world in general) had me pondering morality at a very early age.

As far as structure and guidance go, ours are allowed to go to bed when they please, wake up when they please(no school), and meet and respond to their basic needs as they please, so long as it doesn't disturb anyone else in the house and we can all live in peace. If someone is disturbed by an action, we attempt to work it out together. We have a few "non-negotiables" which apply to everyone in the family, and these things are not generally up for regular discussion unless someone can bring a winning argument to the table and amend the law.

Our primary tool of discipline is modeling, which we feel has kept us honest and our household respectful and lacking resentment. We are constantly being held to our own standard, which I like(as does everyone else). We offer help when asked and rarely give unsolicited advice. We make ourselves available, let our expectations be known, trust, and stay closely involved. We try to treat them how we would like to be treated, which is the best discipline of all imo.

We don't do chores, but per se, but we do all strive to help each other as much as possible. It is something we model, and sometimes I feel like we get too much help! Cleaning right now is a group thing with us(cause we all agree it's more fun that way), and everyone cleans whatever they want, music blaring and all.
 

Ivy

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I was on the TCS mailing list for a few years when my daughter was little. When I realized that much of the advice was coming from a childless man, I decided I needed to go my own way. (That man was David Deutsche, a brilliant physicist and fascinating thinker, but not a parent.)

Also read an interesting book recommended by my father-in-law called PET, or Parent Effectiveness Training. It sounds like the most boring thing ever but it was actually very practical and helpful about how to approach parenting non-coercively without being a doormat.
 

kyuuei

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Thanks for the response there! Are you saying you don't believe that children should have the same respect? Do you believe that age merits respect?

I do, to an extent. Trust me when I say I believe that maturity can exceed or be in lack of age. But age does warrant a lot of things. It's silly to assume that a 14-16 year old is going to make sound judgements at all times. I was allowed to do a lot, and got away with a lot.. mainly because I was good for my word growing up and pretty mature. And even I didn't make good decisions (of course I thought they were good back then..)

I respect elders even if they don't always warrant it.. You'd never catch me cussing at an elderly gentleman. At the same time, you'll never catch me assuming that my 15 year old sister is telling the truth about what she's doing all the time. It's against her nature as a kid, and against mine as a protective adult.

So I can't say I respect her the same way I would my older sister. But it doesn't meant I don't have a lot of respect for my sister.. Because I do acknowledge her as a person outside of the decisions she makes and the growing up she has to do. I'm not sure if I explained this right.

Spanking was a huge part of my childhood as well. I'd like to think that I turned out ok inspite of it, not as a result. Do you think spanking helped you to become a good person?

I have nothing bad to say about it. I was hard headed and pretty retarded as a young kid. I was imaginative and curious, and no grounding, yelling, or punishing would work.. but if my ass hurt, you better believe I won't touch the gear shift of a car again.

My mom told me all the time to never go near the sinkhole in our back yard, that it was dangerous and the people were coming to cover it up.

Of course, I went over there, and nearly died as a result. I got the whoopin' of a lifetime after my mom was done being scared for my life. I never went near it again for fear of that ass beating. I was SUPPOSE to be scared of it.. but if I couldn't be scared of it for the sake of it, I could be scared of pain. And I was. So, I'd say, it was the only thing that worked for me. My sister's, subsequently, weren't spanked nearly as much as younger kids than I was.

If people opt out of it, no harm no foul. But I don't think it had any ill side effects of it, and was effective for my silly little brain at the time to comprehend.
 

run

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Psychologists have realized that learning is a mix of Behavior and Cognition. The things we do can and should be regarded as both behavior and cognition. So the spanking to keep kids in line, eh. I don't like the idea of borderline-torturing your kid to keep his behavior in line before he knows better. Strict rules and a stern, serious, disappointing word with the kid should do the trick. Let's face it, we need parents. Why? for structure. You need rules. Otherwise, 8 year olds could just use their own reasoning and raise themselves. Check out Rafe Esquith. Legend educator.

The other interesting thing I learned in Psychology though, is that punishment didn't do nearly as much as reward in experiments. Time and time again. Does it have a place still? Maybe. I don't think its good rapport between the parent and child. Now that I think about it, the parent should always be working with the kid in correcting behavior, never taking a consequentialist view on things. I think if you pry deep into kids' intentions (opposite of consequences), they'll always confront themselves and iron things out. A parent should never, obviously, flip the kid over to spank 'em, and go "this is for your own good" The thought of that makes me sick...
 

Charmed Justice

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Also read an interesting book recommended by my father-in-law called PET, or Parent Effectiveness Training. It sounds like the most boring thing ever but it was actually very practical and helpful about how to approach parenting non-coercively without being a doormat.

P.E.T is on our bookshelf as well, and I am a supporter.

I also love Alphie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" and Naomi Aldort's "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves"

How is your father-in-law familiar with PET? That's so neat. My mother would have liked to have beat her future grandchildren with James Dobson's," The Strong Willed Child".
 

Ivy

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P.E.T is on our bookshelf as well, and I am a supporter.

I also love Alphie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" and Naomi Aldort's "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves"

How is your father-in-law familiar with PET? That's so neat. My mother would have liked to have beat her future grandchildren with James Dobson's," The Strong Willed Child".

We both come from pretty unusual families. My husband's parents were about as counterculture and non-coercive as it gets, I think he would say to a fault (wishes they had been just a little more structured). His parents broke up when he was about 3 and he lived with his mother until he was 16 or 17 I think, and when he moved in with his father he basically treated him as an adult roommate.

Mine were very religious but not mainstreamly so, and although they would lay down the law at times and I was spanked on occasion, they were actually very open with us. When school became unbearable for me in the 6th grade, a lot of parents would have said "suck it up kid" but my mom took me out and homeschooled me (in the late 80s when almost nobody homeschooled). That didn't really work very well either so she found a Quaker school that was very open-minded and cleaned two of the buildings weekly in lieu of tuition.
 

Charmed Justice

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But age does warrant a lot of things. It's silly to assume that a 14-16 year old is going to make sound judgements at all times.

Yes, I would agree. But I would think it silly to think that anyone at any age is going to make sound judgements at all times.

I respect elders even if they don't always warrant it.. You'd never catch me cussing at an elderly gentleman. At the same time, you'll never catch me assuming that my 15 year old sister is telling the truth about what she's doing all the time. It's against her nature as a kid, and against mine as a protective adult.

Well, let me say this. I'm not a person who cusses other people...usually. So you wouldn't catch me cussing an elderly man either. But you also wouldn't catch me cussing a child. It's not the age of the person, it's just the fact that I usually don't cuss at people. It's not respectful. Now, that being said, there is the rare occasion when I would cuss at someone. Like, if someone was driving recklessly and endangered my life. Well, I occasionally get the rage on the road when things like that happen, and I don't care how old you are, if you can see my mouth moving, you know what's coming out aint pretty.

you'll never catch me assuming that my 15 year old sister is telling the truth about what she's doing all the time. It's against her nature as a kid, and against mine as a protective adult.

I assume that all people are telling the truth until further notice. I'm not sure what age(or status, or position of authority) has to do with telling the truth. I've been lied to by more adults than children, and the lies the adults told usually had a much bigger impact on my life. I think that part of the reason politicians and priest, or even child molesting family members get such a big chance to abuse those under their command(especially children), is because people wrongly assume that their authority or age means that they can be trusted.

I have nothing bad to say about it. I was hard headed and pretty retarded as a young kid. I was imaginative and curious, and no grounding, yelling, or punishing would work.. but if my ass hurt, you better believe I won't touch the gear shift of a car again.

This sounds like something you were told.;)
 

Charmed Justice

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I think if you pry deep into kids' intentions (opposite of consequences), they'll always confront themselves and iron things out. A parent should never, obviously, flip the kid over to spank 'em, and go "this is for your own good" The thought of that makes me sick...

Yes, often times people don't even consider the intentions of their children. Or, they assume the worse of their own children, breeding mistrust from a very young age.

Have you ever read, "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller?
 

run

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Yes, I would agree. But I would think it silly to think that anyone at any age is going to make sound judgements at all times.

I made good judgements at age 14; I just deliberately ignored them and made bad choices.

Yes, often times people don't even consider the intentions of their children. Or, they assume the worse of their own children, breeding mistrust from a very young age.

Have you ever read, "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller?

QFT. No, I haven't read that book.
 

Ivy

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Have you read any Joseph Chilton Pearce, enfpfer?
 
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