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Free Will, does it exist?

If you were forced to chose, would you say free-will exists (in some form)?

  • Yes. Free will exists in some form.

    Votes: 17 70.8%
  • No. Free will does not exists in any form.

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Screw You! I will not be forced to decide.

    Votes: 4 16.7%

  • Total voters
    24

Totenkindly

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Well, I'm not certain that follows. You may be inclined to think things through, in which case you do not have a choice.

:) Uh huh.

(Talk about an evolutionary dead-end.)
 
O

Oberon

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Dude, all you're doing here is revealing that if you weren't restrained by your ethics, you can see yourself going Nazi. :D If you want to say it's inevitable for all of us, you're going to have to back it up.

Me? I'm an ENTP. I actually don't mind a disordered society all that much.
 

Totenkindly

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Dude, all you're doing here is revealing that if you weren't restrained by your ethics, you can see yourself going Nazi. :D If you want to say it's inevitable for all of us, you're going to have to back it up.

I think I addressed this sufficiently in my mosquito example.

If free will doesn't exist, and we operate from our programming, then everything is reduced to a matter of power -- which programmed robot can enact its will over the others. The outcome is fully dependent on power.

Hence, the Nazis. They did it because they could. (Well, actually, in the end, they couldn't ... because we bombed the living daylights out of them. Another implementation of power.)

Does that make sense?

Note: If your programming does not permit you to use your power, you'll eventually be at the mercy of something else that DOES wield its power more forcefully.

Me? I'm an ENTP. I actually don't mind a disordered society all that much.

I don't either... as long as it doesn't get in my way too much.

But there's still order in the chaos. I think Wildcat is talking about this somewhere -- the illusion of chaos (?), in reference to fractals?
 

Economica

Dhampyr
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What about when it does affect you?

Your response is little more than the reflexive response to a mosquito sucking the blood out of your arm. You swat it to make it stop. But why should you? Why is your right to avoid discomfort more important than the mosquito's right to feed? It's not, if there is no free will. You're simply killing it because you have the power to triumph over the mosquito; and if it had to power to defeat you and suck out all of your blood, it would.

Exactly.

And yet we rebel against that, some of us almost violently? Why?

Beats me. I personally find that the lack of some grander meaning with life is the tough part to swallow whereas I don't bat an eye at the reduction of life to a power struggle. (A cynic would say that that's what the world is already like anyway even though 99% pay lip service to some form of ethics.)

Hence, the Nazis. They did it because they could. (Well, actually, in the end, they couldn't ... because we bombed the living daylights out of them. Another implementation of power.)

The Nazis did it because they could, as did every other homocidal leadership out there, some of whom (less disputably than the Nazis) subscribed to ethics. Ethics historically haven't done a very good job of preventing those with power from abusing it. (Me, I believe in creating incentive structures that induce people to cooperate with each other. :yes:)

Note: If your programming does not permit you to use your power, you'll eventually be at the mercy of something else that DOES wield its power more forcefully.

Correct. Is this scenario supposed to scare me into believing in free will or something? :D
 
O

Oberon

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In any given population there will be a few individuals who desire to impose their will on the rest of the population. Absent any restraining internal impulse or external constraint, they will do so. In some cases they will do so in spite of external constraints, yielding what Nietzche called the Ubermensch, somewhat inadequately translated as "Superman."

Absent free will, the rise of the occasional Superman is both inevitable and meaningless, I think.
 

Economica

Dhampyr
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In any given population there will be a few individuals who desire to impose their will on the rest of the population. Absent any restraining internal impulse or external constraint, they will do so. In some cases they will do so in spite of external constraints, yielding what Nietzche called the Ubermensch, somewhat inadequately translated as "Superman."

Absent free will, the rise of the occasional Superman is both inevitable and meaningless, I think.

Why is it inevitable? Assuming that the others can restrain him in a scenario with free will, what's stopping them in the scenario without it?
 

Totenkindly

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Correct. Is this scenario supposed to scare me into believing in free will or something? :D

No. Because I'm exploring the ramifications of this; and while it might seem like I have an opinion, I actually don't. If free will doesn't really exist, then how do I intellectually reconcile reality with the world I would rather live in (which pretends it does)? Since, um, that seems to be what I'm compelled to do by my nature? ;)

I have no idea.

And I would also like to have some sort of coherent understanding of the entire structure... which I probably never will. I just get stymied at this point. There are inconsistencies I cannot quite weed out.
 

ptgatsby

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And I would also like to have some sort of coherent understanding of the entire structure... which I probably never will. I just get stymied at this point. There are inconsistencies I cannot quite weed out.

All naturalistic views eventually boil down to pre-programming. It is the degree of complexity that is the trick.

The irony I see is that religion tends to believe in both - God's plan is set, but he'll judge you... and you have choice, but God knows what path you'll take, oh, except, God also set everything in motion, but no, he's not responsible for your actions.

[/rant]

In any case, morality and ethics is nothing more than making decisions based upon a set of conditionings that you have undergone.

Free will can be seen in so many ways... from moment 0 onward, programming/reactions, finite choices, quantum views...
 
O

Oberon

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Why is it inevitable? Assuming that the others can restrain him in a scenario with free will, what's stopping them in the scenario without it?

Oh, interesting question. I am talking way too fast on this thread, and using far too much intuition. I must stop and think a bit.
 

Totenkindly

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The irony I see is that religion tends to believe in both - God's plan is set, but he'll judge you... and you have choice, but God knows what path you'll take, oh, except, God also set everything in motion, but no, he's not responsible for your actions.

Well, I agree with that -- faiths want to have their communion wafer and yet eat it too.

In any case, morality and ethics is nothing more than making decisions based upon a set of conditionings that you have undergone.

So how are those who rebel against and overthrow the system conditioned, once the system has become stable and everyone is conditioned in the same way? Wouldn't all the dissenters have been conditioned away?

Or are you saying there is just a genetic (not environmental) influence involved in the dissenters?

(I don't know. Things seem to become less consolidated and diverse, not moreso. Or at least it continues to fluctuate, I suppose. And eventually the dissenting genetics would be "killed off" by the system as well, wouldn't they?)

Or perhaps the treatment of those who normally would go along with the system, if the system ends up being abusive, would push them into dissenting to avoid pain...

:shock: [headspin]
 

ptgatsby

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So how are those who rebel against and overthrow the system conditioned, once the system has become stable and everyone is conditioned in the same way? Wouldn't all the dissenters have been conditioned away?

Ah, this is where I differ from INTPS :D

Let's assume that

a1) We are all just the sum of our base programming
AND
a2) Our programming is adaptive to our environment

AND

b1) Our programming is pruned at the macro level (pruning of genetics)
AND
b2) Our programming works at the micro level (conditioning)

(ie: genetics = function, conditioning = passed variable)

So,

i) rebel against and overthrow the system conditioned

What does rebel mean? We are assuming that a) is correct, so they are not rebels, they are fulfilling their programming. As per a1) and b1), the programming is adapting to new situations in which certain conditions prompt certain responses. As in b1), this pruning takes place once the reaction takes place, meaning latent programming from a1) remains, also meaning that dissenters are not reconditioned at all - they can revert easily as the situation changes. As per b2), similar code can have drastic changes with just a change of environment (from passive to violent within minutes, if not seconds).

That follows into;

ii) once the system has become stable

There is no stable system. The world changes, our programming changes, our conditioning changes. We aren't written in the sense that we are designed to "pick up rocks, put down rocks" where deviancy is obvious. The end effect, no matter what effect it is, comes from our programming - adaptive changing programming.

To put it in perspective, a thousand years ago we fought with spears, while now we can wipe all life from the planet. There is no "stable" - our programming changes the rules, the reactions, our abilities, our conditioning... We have gone from "life is cheap" 500 years ago to "human rights for all!" now... also a change of conditioning. But the code of who we are has barely changed in a thousand years (well, black plague stuff aside).

The system itself is never stable. It changes at all three levels - environment, programming and conditioning. Deviancy could be seen as an evolution of those, or an attempted evolution, at the micro level. IOW, just an adaptation where if the programming fails, it is pruned.

The same goes with conditioning;

iii) dissenters have been conditioned away

Proof of concept: is human rights programmed into our mindset from the beginning? Yes - the golden rule is nearly universal in any time period. But the context is different (tribal, nation, family, etc) Is the concept of "enemy", the "other" also programmed? Yes. It's the frame of reference that changes. "We are always at war with...".

Just ask yourself, 50 years ago - what was the number 1 terrorist group in the world. What would you answer now? Can you isolate conditioning that is the same between the two groups?

Why was there a large scale "moral" failure heading into WW2 in Germany? Because the environment and our programming made it inevitable. Magnification of triggers through media, the breakdown of the Golden rule (unfair treatment post WW1)... the triggering of the other (they were isolated). Same code, same conditioning... leading to a different environment with new conditioning.

Therein lies the question - just how different do you think you are? It can happen here, there... anywhere there are humans, the same conditions can rise. There is no safety net - we are a sum of our environment and our programming.

Every small and large reaction comes from complex code - not direct causation. It's how we self-organise. A city without traffic lights isn't significantly better than one with. The effects are done at the margin... One form of organisation isn't that different than another... the degree of complexity, etc... the tools we use... Everything changes.

It's impossible for these i,ii and iii to be true because the removal of dissenters would be a removal of our core coding. To be adaptive is to have an unstable system - a constant stream of emergent systems, if you will.
 

Economica

Dhampyr
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Ah, this is where I differ from INTPS :D

And most of your post is where I differ from the TPs. ;)

Why was there a large scale "moral" failure heading into WW2 in Germany? Because the environment and our programming made it inevitable. Magnification of triggers through media, the breakdown of the Golden rule (unfair treatment post WW1)... the triggering of the other (they were isolated). Same code, same conditioning... leading to a different environment with new conditioning.

Therein lies the question - just how different do you think you are? It can happen here, there... anywhere there are humans, the same conditions can rise. There is no safety net - we are a sum of our environment and our programming.

I agree with this.

Has anyone read The Exception by Christian Jungersen? From reviews cited on the book's webpage:

The Exception is excellent on so many things: the texture of office life, the appalling inconsistencies and lacunas in our perceptions of our own characters, the way intelligent people use the insights of psychology not to deepen their self-awareness but to calumniate one another with more sophisticated accusations.

... Anyone who has ever worked with others will immediately recognize the jockeying for position, the passive-aggressive behavior and escalating harassment ... What is new is that Jungersen does not dismiss this behavior as simple office politics or female cattiness. In deft, believable touches he ratchets up the dread and draws a clear line from breaking a vase in a co-worker's office to Kristallnacht.

Aside from being a suspenseful page-turner, The Exception challenges our complacency and self-regard at every turn. We all wonder at times what we would do if we were faced with another Holocaust, a Rwanda right here on our shores. Jungersen's book can't answer that question, but it does make us ask it of ourselves. In his hands, the personal has never seemed more political, and redemption itself, while possible, is shot through with self-delusion.

I highly recommend it. :yes:
 

The Ü™

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Isn't Free Will a movie about a killer whale and some kid?
 

Recluse

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Isn't Free Will a movie about a killer whale and some kid?

You're thinking of "Free Willy," which sounds like the title of a porno flick but is actually that of a children's film. I won't speculate on the reasoning behind that marketing decision.
 

ygolo

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This thread has gotten more participation....

So much to respond to... but I need to get back to work... and I also need sleep. Perhaps it is just my nature to be distracted....

Since a lot of the discussion has centered around morality, I wonder what people think of a couple of the premises used in A Proof of Free Will

In particular:
2. Whatever should be done can be done. (premise)

But premise one also uses "should". It seems like premise 1 really doesn't beg the question, since the people here who believe free-will does not exist, seem to believe in some form of "should".

I'm with BlueWing. I think the question of free will is intimately connected to the question "Who am I?" It is asked by many of the ancient religions.

To ask if something has free-will, we need do know where the boudary of that something is.

Do the memes I've encountered run my thought process and affect who I am?
Are those memes part of me, and if they are, then are they participating in the decision and therefore engaging free-will?

Does my biology run my decision making? Is my biology part of me? and if so, is it not making the decision as it chooses?

When I get hurt, sometimes I am aware of it, sometimes I have too much adreneline pumping to notice while playing sports. Sometimes I see something happen to myself that should make me say "ouch", but I don't because I don't feel it (till the rush wears off). Sometimes, in these situations, I chosse to say ouch.

What is the "agent" that does or does not have free will?
 

draon9

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Inspired by

The Quantum Soul

How do you differ from your type?

and Type xxxx-Does it Exist

Does Free will exist?

Consider:

A Proof of Free Will

and

Conway's Proof of the Free Will Theorem


The philosophical proof in the first site can be summarized as follows (MFT means minimum free-will theorem):


I actually argued with the prof. on premise 2, and we finally had to let it go.

The physics is interesting in the second site, but the short of it is on of two things are true:



Anyway, just food for thought. It is interesting that we are positing free-will at the particle level.



Nostradamus book predicted hitler and there is your answer
 
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