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  1. #51
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Suppose we have an account of Jesus acting like the most ethically sound man possible.

    How is this a proposition in favor of the truth of the Christian religion?
    Because one of my requirements was that he claim to be the Son of God. If he were the most ethically sound man possible, then he wouldn't lie about something like this.
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  2. #52
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Do you believe there is such thing as a premise that cannot be questioned? If not, doesn't faith come into play in every single argument? (Don't know if you covered this in your original essay.)
    There is a smidgen of doubt (at the very least) in every confident statement we might make.

    However, we make countless tangible decisions as if they were 100% accurate on a daily basis... and they pan out as expected. iow, on a practical level, this sort of assumption allows for a close approximation of reality.

    When we start talking metaphysics and the divine, however, that seems to be a different area than practical tangible daily observable life. Many of the truth claims being made are NOT obvious or not really falsifiable.

    And that is the sort of topic we are discussing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Because one of my requirements was that he claim to be the Son of God. If he were the most ethically sound man possible, then he wouldn't lie about something like this.
    lots of assumptions:
    1. Define "most ethically sound" -- the term is defined differently depending on the speaker.
    2. When I see someone say, "If... then he wouldn't..." my Assumption meter goes off.
    3. "One of my requirements..." again, we deal with assumptions.

    These discussions usually don't go far because people operate from different assumptions.
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  3. #53
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Because one of my requirements was that he claim to be the Son of God. If he were the most ethically sound man possible, then he wouldn't lie about something like this.
    Yet he still could have been mistaken. Being ethically sound does not preclude the possibility of error, being intellectually sound does.
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  4. #54
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    How do we know what "an argument we have good reasons to believe to be true" looks like? How do we know if our premises are warranted? People disagree all the time about this. The problems with argument don't come from incorrect logical steps (in most cases), but from different premises.

    Some thoughts:
    1) There is no absolute soundness of an argument, since there are no absolute premises.
    2) We pick premises based on personal will, because we have no absolute ways to know their truth value. (You will probably disagree here)
    3) According to your definition of faith, we use it in 2.

    To explain 2 further: To defend our premises, we make logical arguments with those premises as the conclusion. We can continue this recursively forever. But at no point will we find anything that can't be questioned. If you continue this process long enough, you will eventually just state personal opinions of how the world works.
    Just use your head a little. Some premises are better than others. For example, the premise that I have a hand in front of me cannot be deduced or proven altogether, but its a well warranted one as I observe it with my senses. Same is to be said for a complex problem that we can work out with a rigorous logical or mathematical algorithm.






    A premise that there is a God is not observed in the external world nor is it a derivation of any complex notion with the faculties of objective reasoning.

    We cannot deduce all things because we do not know the first premises to the world as in order to know them we must observe all things. Yet with all that we know about the world we can establish some premises tentatively. I don't think I need to explain the reliability of the premise that there is a hand around me or that principles of mathematics and logic represent the proper ways of reasoning.
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  5. #55
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    So, many of our personal opinions about the world overlap. When two people agree on a premise, deductive logic is great.

    I'd still say we all have a little bit of faith, though. We have faith that other people think. We have faith, basically, in what we consider probable.

    From a pragmatic standpoint, not having this faith would probably make us less evolutionarily fit than having it.

    I said this before, maybe you're using faith differently than I am?

  6. #56
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    So, many of our personal opinions about the world overlap. When two people agree on a premise, deductive logic is great.

    I'd still say we all have a little bit of faith, though. We have faith that other people think. We have faith, basically, in what we consider probable.

    From a pragmatic standpoint, not having this faith would probably make us less evolutionarily fit than having it.

    I said this before, maybe you're using faith differently than I am?
    Again, many of the things we know we have reasons to believe we know. We do not need faith or our personal will to magnify the level of our confidence in our views as they are warrantable in their own right.
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  7. #57
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Lol. Well we have different premises, then.

  8. #58
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    In terms of faith, to me, it's simple:

    I believe in myself, and those that I know.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  9. #59
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yet he still could have been mistaken. Being ethically sound does not preclude the possibility of error, being intellectually sound does.
    How would you detect such a mistake? What action would reveal a false Son of God from a real Son of God if both followed my three premises?
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  10. #60
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    How would you detect such a mistake? What action would reveal a false Son of God from a real Son of God if both followed my three premises?
    Bottom line is, if he is the Son of God or intellectually sound, he should be making true utterances about the world which could be proven in terms of objective reasoning. If he knows what he is talking about he should be able to defend that rationally.

    It doesn't matter if he is the Son of God, it only matters that he makes true utterances.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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