User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 66

  1. #11
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What if the preacher is the Son of God?

    *snark*
    Than he should prove that he is Son of God by plausibly explaining his case.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Than he should prove that he is Son of God by plausibly explaining his case.
    And what sort of proof or explanation would be acceptable?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And what sort of proof or explanation would be acceptable?
    1)Argument must stay logically consistent.
    2)Premises must be grounded in observations of the external world. Something that all of us have observed, or is clear that such a thing is possible for us to observe.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    1)Argument must stay logically consistent.
    2)Premises must be grounded in observations of the external world. Something that all of us have observed, or is clear that such a thing is possible for us to observe.
    So IYO did Jesus ever manage to pull that off?

    Or is the account too distant from the modern day to be trustworthy?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    1)Argument must stay logically consistent.
    2)Premises must be grounded in observations of the external world. Something that all of us have observed, or is clear that such a thing is possible for us to observe.
    LOL of course according to this miracles are an insufficient proof.
    1) Miracles are illogical
    2) Miracles are inconsistent. They can't simply be repeated by anyone. That is why they are miracles.

    For most people if they saw a clear miracle I think that would be enough proof even if everyone else said differently.

    "Look here. He must be the Son of God. He turned all of this water into wine."
    "But how am I to believe that it was ever water? All I see it wine."
    "With the way this party is going, it won't be long before you don't see the wine either."
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  6. #16
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So IYO did Jesus ever manage to pull that off?

    Or is the account too distant from the modern day to be trustworthy?
    Most likely we do not have reliable records of this man's activities.

    Even if we did, he has failed as he made no attempt to even make an argument in the first place. We could only infer certain things from his claim which lead to inconsistent arguments, but many statements he made did not follow the form of the argument.

    To adjust my earlier criterion, a presenter must meet the following 3. We should also note that 'Son of God' is the term of praise which means he knows the truth. Thus he must argue in favor of his proposition just like anyone else, simply give us reasons to believe him.

    1)Propositions must be presented in the form of an argument.
    2)Argument must be logically consistent
    3)Premises must be grounded in observable phenomena.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    LOL of course according to this miracles are an insufficient proof.
    1) Miracles are illogical
    2) Miracles are inconsistent. They can't simply be repeated by anyone. That is why they are miracles.

    For most people if they saw a clear miracle I think that would be enough proof even if everyone else said differently.

    "Look here. He must be the Son of God. He turned all of this water into wine."
    "But how am I to believe that it was ever water? All I see it wine."
    "With the way this party is going, it won't be long before you don't see the wine either."

    If I ever saw a 'miracle' and was convinced that it is real, its game over my friend. This is basically fact of the existence of a square circle. All of philosophy, the sciences and mathematics have been proven worthless right there.

    But wait a minute, that not necessarily either! As because all of my reasoning faculties have been disavowed by virtue of my acceptance of a belief in miracle, I do not exactly know if they were renounced.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #17
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If I ever saw a 'miracle' and was convinced that it is real, its game over my friend. This is basically fact of the existence of a square circle. All of philosophy, the sciences and mathematics have been proven worthless right there.

    But wait a minute, that not necessarily either! As because all of my reasoning faculties have been disavowed by virtue of my acceptance of a belief in miracle, I do not exactly know if they were renounced.
    So you are going to two absolutes. Either miracles don't exist, or they do exist and we are nuts if we believe they are real? In this case does it really matter what kind of argument a "Son of God" could make? If he did miracles, we'd all go insane witnessing them. On the other hand what other way is there to prove that one is the "Son of God"? Even if he could display uncanny knowledge beyond normal human capability, that would be a miracle in itself.

    Aside: The problem of a square circle was solved long ago. They originally thought it was unsolvable, because they were making an assumption that they were not aware of. Once someone "thought outside of the square", so to speak, the problem was solved.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  8. #18
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So you are going to two absolutes. Either miracles don't exist, or they do exist and we are nuts if we believe they are real? In this case does it really matter what kind of argument a "Son of God" could make? If he did miracles, we'd all go insane witnessing them. On the other hand what other way is there to prove that one is the "Son of God"? Even if he could display uncanny knowledge beyond normal human capability, that would be a miracle in itself.

    Aside: The problem of a square circle was solved long ago. They originally thought it was unsolvable, because they were making an assumption that they were not aware of. Once someone "thought outside of the square", so to speak, the problem was solved.
    1)Miracle is to be defined as an occurence contravening the laws of logical thinking, and for that matter laws of reality yet somehow convincing us of its own veracity.

    If we believe in miracles, we do not subscribe to laws of reasoning. Anything goes in this case.

    2)Beyond normal human capability is within the provice of rational thought. Whatever is outside of the province of rational thought is empty sophistry because in that case it cannot be couched in terms of human understanding. Thus if one is making a statement that he is Son of God, he is talking within the terms of human understanding. Thus this claim can either be proven or refuted with our faculties of reasoning. If he is not talking within terms of human understanding, he is not Son of God as this notion is necessarily within the aforementioned terms.

    3)My remark concerning the Square circle was not about mathematical figures. It was about belief in logically untenable statements. With your example in consideration, it ought to be stated that contradictions do indeed exist in human psychology, and they are resolved not by us becoming more open-minded and realizing that what we saw initially was not a contradiction, but by correcting our errors in reasoning.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #19
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    1)Miracle is to be defined as an occurence contravening the laws of logical thinking, and for that matter laws of reality yet somehow convincing us of its own veracity.

    If we believe in miracles, we do not subscribe to laws of reasoning. Anything goes in this case.

    2)Beyond normal human capability is within the provice of rational thought. Whatever is outside of the province of rational thought is empty sophistry because in that case it cannot be couched in terms of human understanding. Thus if one is making a statement that he is Son of God, he is talking within the terms of human understanding. Thus this claim can either be proven or refuted with our faculties of reasoning. If he is not talking within terms of human understanding, he is not Son of God as this notion is necessarily within the aforementioned terms.

    3)My remark concerning the Square circle was not about mathematical figures. It was about belief in logically untenable statements. With your example in consideration, it ought to be stated that contradictions do indeed exist in human psychology, and they are resolved not by us becoming more open-minded and realizing that what we saw initially was not a contradiction, but by correcting our errors in reasoning.
    1) Miracle I would define as a phenomena that cannot be repeated by anyone under similar circumstances. When I said before that miracles were illogical I meant that many people would see them this way according to this definition. In reality they would not negate our ability to reason.

    2) This goes with 1). Uncanny knowledge would be a miracle, as would turning water into wine or bringing someone back to life several days after death. Most would consider these sufficient proofs.

    3) Your three is false. Errors in conventional reasoning are relatively easy to correct. However many breakthroughs have been made by someone questioning our assumptions about the world (e.g. penicillin or special relativity). The root of innovation is not really in reason, but in intuition. Reason is there to give shape to intuition so that it is useful.

    People make a plethora of assumptions unknowingly. Intuition helps us uncover these assumptions. Once the assumptions are clearly stated it allows us to reason more astutely.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  10. #20
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    The worrying thing that occurs to me is that it could well have been explained but the writers of the bible didn't understand and so to stop others questioning edited it a little and came up with "he said do this and don't ask questions.. it's rude".

    It'd be interesting to disassemble the bible with reference to personality typing and other psychology fields to see where there maybe discrepancies due to it being a book written by mortals. I think that too much faith is placed in that book. It is, after all, a story book whether based on fact or not.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

Similar Threads

  1. The Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of (strong) Atheism
    By Isk Stark in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 12-09-2017, 10:33 PM
  2. The Situation of Faith in God or Science
    By nonsequitur in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-20-2012, 11:44 PM
  3. Is the brain the source of faith?
    By JAVO in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 02-05-2009, 05:08 AM
  4. The Ethics of Probability: A Poker Metaphor for Faith and Ethics
    By simulatedworld in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-17-2008, 08:00 AM
  5. Mother Teresa's crisis of faith
    By Sahara in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-25-2007, 12:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO