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Who Was Jesus?

Who was Jesus?

  • The Son of God (in the traditionally understood evangelical sense)

    Votes: 42 37.5%
  • A very good and wise man.

    Votes: 21 18.8%
  • Definitely more than human... but nothing else can be said with clarity.

    Votes: 7 6.3%
  • A man tapped into the "ineffable Greatness" of the cosmos/universe.

    Votes: 3 2.7%
  • A idiosyncratic nut.

    Votes: 9 8.0%
  • It is unclear whether Jesus actually lived.

    Votes: 21 18.8%
  • Jesus existed, but it's unsure whether he was human or "more than human"/godly.

    Votes: 9 8.0%

  • Total voters
    112

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
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Personally, I'd like to have this option added: Jesus existed, but I don't know whether he was human or godly.

Jesus was this guy who sounds really cool but has a lot of mystery and intrigue surrounding him. Did he exist? Was he God?

I personally think he did exist, because I vaguely remember his name being documented somewhere. I think someone brought that up in this thread too: it's historical fact that a man named Jesus existed and that he was crucified by Pilot.

As an agnostic, or someone who doesn't know their head from their rear, I really don't know what to make of Jesus. I was raised Roman Catholic, very strictly taught all the Christian beliefs, went to catholic grade school, etc. I'd prefer to think of Jesus as the guy with the friendly smile sitting on the side of the mountain with flowery meadows surrounding him, teaching valuable information to those who sought it. I'd like to think of him as a good guy, so until other evidence contradicts this, I'll continue thinking of him this way.

Was he God, the Holy Ghost, and everything Christians believe? Who the heck knows, and why does anyone have to be certain? Religion is taken on faith, and I respect that. You either have faith or you don't. Honestly, I think most people think of Jesus as a great guy. The real question is whether or not he was God, and if you believe he was God, I'm pretty sure that automatically makes you a Christian. Personally, I haven't rejected the idea, but I really don't have faith, so I'm not technically Christian, even though I follow a lot of Christian beliefs. But I think they're beliefs that are obviously good for society and good for yourself: be kind to your neighbors, don't cheat, kill, etc.

And I just like to reply without reading sometimes, so if I just restated a lot of what others have said, sorry.
 

Crabapple

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No disrespect intended to Christians-As a Wiccan, I was taught to respect other people's religious beliefs- this is something I heard and found interesting. And I may get slammed but here goes....

What i was told by this Egyptologist guy (who's brilliant, cool, and literally crazy) is that there was more than one Jesus Christ, just as there's been more than one pope. The Christ that was executed by the Romans was the last of a series of mystic priests called The Christened One's -therefore the name Christ. And the miracle's ascribed to Jesus Christ were all of the miracles performed over time by these Christened Ones, the last one included.

The Vatican, he told me, has the information that there was more than one Christ- they're just keeping it under wraps for some vague and conspiracy theorist type reason. Then he showed me a bunch of documentation (in a book) which I don't remember, because I didn't understand it.

This Egyptologist genuinely believes this, and other people seem to as well, being as there are books written about it.

Interesting possibility. One that I'm not prepared to argue in defense of....

Personally, I believe we are all the children of God, one no more than the other. I believe that miracles are possible and are more common than supposed. I do not believe in a virgin birth in humans, but some reptiles and amphibians are capable of it- but their offspring is invariably female. As a Wiccan, I believe there was a man named Jesus Christ- but he was not the Messiah. There's no such thing as a Messiah. One isn't necessary- we all undergo countless rebirths and there is no eternal punishment in Hell. Jesus was, however, a prophet, a teacher, and a healer who deserves respect- like Buddha.
 

Totenkindly

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What i was told by this Egyptologist guy (who's brilliant, cool, and literally crazy) is that there was more than one Jesus Christ, just as there's been more than one pope. The Christ that was executed by the Romans was the last of a series of mystic priests called The Christened One's -therefore the name Christ. And the miracle's ascribed to Jesus Christ were all of the miracles performed over time by these Christened Ones, the last one included.

The Vatican, he told me, has the information that there was more than one Christ- they're just keeping it under wraps for some vague and conspiracy theorist type reason. Then he showed me a bunch of documentation (in a book) which I don't remember, because I didn't understand it.

This Egyptologist genuinely believes this, and other people seem to as well, being as there are books written about it.

Interesting possibility. One that I'm not prepared to argue in defense of....

All right. If you could, sources would be nice. Honestly, I've never heard of this before, and it smacks of "Dan Brown-ism" if I had to guess...

There were a number of "Messiah figures" around Jesus' time, but I didn't think they were collectively given a name -- at least, I had never run across a category for them.

This is one reason it's supposed that Jesus was recorded as avoiding being called a Messiah except to his intimates; he wanted to avoid being lumped into that group and treated similarly. (Note that at least in the Gospel records he kept shying away from revealing his role, silenced the demons who would have publicly proclaimed his role, etc.) Aside from some comments such as at the start of his ministry (where he read a passage from Isaiah and proclaimed himself as the fulfillment of it), he really tried to avoid being publicly proclaimed the Chosen One and Son of God, focusing more on his ministry of healing and teaching and such.

Personally, I'd like to have this option added: Jesus existed, but I don't know whether he was human or godly.

Added.

Jesus was this guy who sounds really cool but has a lot of mystery and intrigue surrounding him. Did he exist? Was he God? I personally think he did exist, because I vaguely remember his name being documented somewhere. I think someone brought that up in this thread too: it's historical fact that a man named Jesus existed and that he was crucified by Pilot.

The Jewish historian Josephus had mentioned Jesus in one paragraph of text, and I think there was one external reference in passing elsewhere. At the time I had read about such things, those were the only external references people knew of. Perhaps more was uncovered later -- does anyone know? Secular references to Jesus would be preferred, as outside corroboration.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
No disrespect intended to Christians-As a Wiccan, I was taught to respect other people's religious beliefs- this is something I heard and found interesting. And I may get slammed but here goes....

What i was told by this Egyptologist guy (who's brilliant, cool, and literally crazy) is that there was more than one Jesus Christ, just as there's been more than one pope. The Christ that was executed by the Romans was the last of a series of mystic priests called The Christened One's -therefore the name Christ. And the miracle's ascribed to Jesus Christ were all of the miracles performed over time by these Christened Ones, the last one included.

The Vatican, he told me, has the information that there was more than one Christ- they're just keeping it under wraps for some vague and conspiracy theorist type reason. Then he showed me a bunch of documentation (in a book) which I don't remember, because I didn't understand it.

This Egyptologist genuinely believes this, and other people seem to as well, being as there are books written about it.

Interesting possibility. One that I'm not prepared to argue in defense of....

Personally, I believe we are all the children of God, one no more than the other. I believe that miracles are possible and are more common than supposed. I do not believe in a virgin birth in humans, but some reptiles and amphibians are capable of it- but their offspring is invariably female. As a Wiccan, I believe there was a man named Jesus Christ- but he was not the Messiah. There's no such thing as a Messiah. One isn't necessary- we all undergo countless rebirths and there is no eternal punishment in Hell. Jesus was, however, a prophet, a teacher, and a healer who deserves respect- like Buddha.

Initially, I found this hard to believe, etymologically speaking.

But then I read this wikipedia article.

Perhaps there were many Christs (Anointed Ones) and Jesus happened to be one of them for which the story with the most "legs" caught on. After that maybe all "Christ" stories were applied to Jesus.

Who knows? Unfortunately, all sides seem to lack sources (or in the Conservative/Literal Christian case, all point to the same source, who then only gives vague references to Josephus and highly disputed archaeological evidence)
 

Totenkindly

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But then I read this wikipedia article.

Perhaps there were many Christs (Anointed Ones) and Jesus happened to be one of them for which the story with the most "legs" caught on. After that maybe all "Christ" stories were applied to Jesus.

?? The Wiki article never even alluded to that possibility. Are you just saying that because "Christ" means "Anointed One," this offers the possibility that the Wiccan comment could be true? That is a very fuzzy proof, at best...

I'm not very fond of Josh McDowell as an apologist... He comes into things with a preconceived POV and just looks for evidence to support his ideas, if I had to sum up his basic approach.
 

ygolo

My termites win
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?? The Wiki article never even alluded to that possibility. Are you just saying that because "Christ" means "Anointed One," this offers the possibility that the Wiccan comment could be true? That is a very fuzzy proof, at best...

I think you are being too kind in terms of this being a "fuzzy proof".
But almost anything is possible. Strong proof is needed for both impossibility and certain existence, but possible existence needs almost nothing.

I'm not very fond of Josh McDowell as an apologist... He comes into things with a preconceived POV and just looks for evidence to support his ideas, if I had to sum up his basic approach.

Unfortunately, even J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig have referenced him.

If you can point me to better sources, I would indeed be grateful.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
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I'm surprised by the number of people who doubt Jesus actually lived. I suppose you learn something new every day. :)

Btw, what Crabapple is describing does not sound too different from the Bahai faith, although I don't believe they call them "Christs". (Not that I am an expert on the Bahai faith or anything.)Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Crabapple

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All right. If you could, sources would be nice. Honestly, I've never heard of this before, and it smacks of "Dan Brown-ism" if I had to guess...

There were a number of "Messiah figures" around Jesus' time, but I didn't think they were collectively given a name -- at least, I had never run across a category for them.

Well, I will try to get those sources for you- the Egyptologist is hard to get ahold of, but does come by at least once a week- I'll see what references he has.

Are you just saying that because "Christ" means "Anointed One," this offers the possibility that the Wiccan comment could be true?

Please note: Belief that there were christened or anointed one's was an idea that I was introduced to- it wasn't taught to me as a part of Wicca. I don't think that it's an idea that most Wiccans accept-
 
O

Oberon

Guest
Sigh. Does this mean I've finally become a Lutheran???

You can't officially join the denomination until you have proven that you can successfully make a green-bean casserole with Campbell's mushroom soup in the mix and Durkee brand french-fried onions on top.

Don't worry, it's not all that difficult. (I think the Missouri Synod split off over questions about the legitimacy of using off-brand soup and onions.)
 

Totenkindly

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You can't officially join the denomination until you have proven that you can successfully make a green-bean casserole with Campbell's mushroom soup in the mix and Durkee brand french-fried onions on top.

I can do that! (And I also have a fetish for the dessert table.)

Don't worry, it's not all that difficult. (I think the Missouri Synod split off over questions about the legitimacy of using off-brand soup and onions.)

Oh, that's sooooooooo gay.

I think you are being too kind in terms of this being a "fuzzy proof".

Ha, well... I was. :) [But I get tired of sounding like a b*tch all the time. So I was trying for that kinder, gentler thing...]

But almost anything is possible. Strong proof is needed for both impossibility and certain existence, but possible existence needs almost nothing.

It's like saying, "Well, that definitely might be true!"

Unfortunately, even J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig have referenced him.

Just in a sentence or two, what do you think of them / their contributions to the conversation? (Just curious.)

Point taken, but if someone says they are slightly convinced that Jesus was a blueberry popsicle consumed by a family of migrating wildebeest then I am not allowed to state as fact that such a belief is not consistent with Christianity?

Aside from the well-known reality that migrating wildebeests like strawberries, not blueberries (especially out of season), I would definitely positively say that it could very well possibly be true. (Maybe.)
 

Ivy

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You can't officially join the denomination until you have proven that you can successfully make a green-bean casserole with Campbell's mushroom soup in the mix and Durkee brand french-fried onions on top.

Don't worry, it's not all that difficult. (I think the Missouri Synod split off over questions about the legitimacy of using off-brand soup and onions.)

*nods sagely* In the Quaker tradition, the application procedure involves demonstrating that you are comfortable washing and reusing plastic picnic flatware and place settings. The more times, the better. I'm currently an 8th Dan Quaker.
 

JivinJeffJones

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You can't officially join the denomination until you have proven that you can successfully make a green-bean casserole with Campbell's mushroom soup in the mix and Durkee brand french-fried onions on top.

Don't worry, it's not all that difficult. (I think the Missouri Synod split off over questions about the legitimacy of using off-brand soup and onions.)

Heathens. Sola Small Sandwicha.
 
O

Oberon

Guest
*nods sagely* In the Quaker tradition, the application procedure involves demonstrating that you are comfortable washing and reusing plastic picnic flatware and place settings. The more times, the better. I'm currently an 8th Dan Quaker.

Do the Quakers have any liturgy which specifically addresses the presence or absence of chopped hard-boiled egg in potato salad? There some congregations among Reformed Baptists that allege it to be a non-issue, but these groups are widely considered by the rest of the denomination as ecumenical to the point of apostasy.
 

Ivy

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Do the Quakers have any liturgy which specifically addresses the presence or absence of chopped hard-boiled egg in potato salad? There some congregations among Reformed Baptists that allege it to be a non-issue, but these groups are widely considered by the rest of the denomination as ecumenical to the point of apostasy.

Oh good heavens yes. The canonical answer is that chopped hard-boiled egg can be served on the side for the non-vegans, but one should never assume that everyone one is cooking for eats animal matter. Therefore, the default position is vegan, with any variations on that theme to be done in a way that will accomodate all dietary choices.
 

Totenkindly

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Leading to that next important question: WWJE?
(What Would Jesus Eat?)
 

SolitaryWalker

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We see a reason to believe that a man who called himself Jesus existed. We may not have empirical evidence for his corpse, yet, if we consider the way he was represented in history---it seems more like his persona belonged to an individual who walked this planet, as opposed to a character fabricated likely for the purposes of moral inspiration and political sensation.


However, it is also likely that his personality traits may have been defaced by his followers and his enemies. To begin with, there likely has been a spark under his name, where there was a reason to believe that he was the best and the wisest of all men. Some projected divinity onto him, others were content with just being proud followers of a man of such seemingly extraordinary magnanimity.

Drawing allegories to depict abstruse ethical truths has been a common-practice in religion, as evinced in Maimonides's Guide for the Perplexed. (Advanced Search) (Advanced Search) Hence, by those merits, it is likely that this was the case for stories of Jesus walking on water and literally resurrecting his body from the dead. The present day 'Christianity', is perhaps the most notorious for that particular sort of mischief. There wouldn't be much wrong with those 'stories' if only they were not so fervent on passing them off as literal to the point where they start going contrary to reason.

This endeavor had little to do with spirituality and more to do with the need to exert political control. The stature of Jesus was no more than a meands to an end, as it has been thoroughly exploited by Constantine the Great.

There is no reason to believe that those who do not share the same beliefs about the 'Christ' as Constantine are not to be called Christians. A christian is most sensibly defined as one who follows Christ, or a man named Jesus. There were many other clans with various ideas in regards to who Jesus was and what he taught. Some are hardly compatible with the way he is today represented by the church. Indeed, chicanery of hermeneutics was manifest and rife.

There is nothing about scripture as a thing in itself that makes it holy, the only reason we consider it holy is because it was sanctified by our ancestors who likely lacked the ability to think critically and accepted whatever gave them a momentary sense of security. The Aztecs believed that sacrificing the flesh of their captured enemies in honor of their sun-god would prevent their apocalypse from taking place the night after! If their religion survived, this wouldn't be any less of a 'scripture' than Jesus saying love thy neighbor.

One can say that their religion didn't survive and Jesus's did because his was more morally acceptable, those that are morally unacceptable tend not to survive. That is certainly a sentimental illusion. In order for a religion to survive it has to create a society where sheep are kept neatly in line so noone can subvert the religion. And of course, it has to have 1 merit, however, it has to create order in society, in order for the society to survive while attempting to preserve the religion. The Aztecs have managed to do this despite their abominable practices and roguish ethic. They would likely have lasted to this very day had it not been for the Spaniards having taken them over.


Nonetheless, despite that we don't know much about concrete occurences of Jesus's life and specifics of his personality, it would be safe to conclude however, that he was a kind and a wise man searching for the true good in this world. Who was murdered by the brutal and the ignorant who were afraid that he'd debunk them for who they really were, and this would cause them to lose control over their community.
 
O

Oberon

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This endeavor had little to do with spirituality and more to do with the need to exert political control. The stature of Jesus was no more than a meands to an end, as it has been thoroughly exploited by Constantine the Great.

I'm uncertain that one can attribute the popularity of what an outsider would call 'the Jesus cult' to Constantine's machinations. Constantine was beneficial in that he granted legal legitimacy to Christianity; but the followers of Jesus had labored under three centuries of suspicion and intermittent persecution (under Nero, Vespasian, and Domitian) prior to Constantine's rule. That isn't the path a potential proselyte chooses if he's looking for power...and while Constantine was beneficial to the church, I'm not certain how to any serious degree the church was beneficial to Constantine, at least in the ways that would have mattered to a Roman emperor.

There is nothing about scripture as a thing in itself that makes it holy, the only reason we consider it holy is because it was sanctified by our ancestors who likely lacked the ability to think critically and accepted whatever gave them a momentary sense of security.

I find it bewildering that you appear content to think that you and others of your generation possess critical thinking skills that previous generations lacked. That seems nonsensical to me, unless you are considering the modern reverence for scripture as literal truth to be proof of such a lack.
 

Crabapple

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We see a reason to believe that a man who called himself Jesus existed. We may not have empirical evidence for his corpse, yet, if we consider the way he was represented in history---it seems more like his persona belonged to an individual who walked this planet, as opposed to a character fabricated likely for the purposes of moral inspiration and political sensation.


However, it is also likely that his personality traits may have been defaced by his followers and his enemies. To begin with, there likely has been a spark under his name, where there was a reason to believe that he was the best and the wisest of all men. Some projected divinity onto him, others were content with just being proud followers of a man of such seemingly extraordinary magnanimity.

Drawing allegories to depict abstruse ethical truths has been a common-practice in religion, as evinced in Maimonides's Guide for the Perplexed. (Advanced Search) (Advanced Search) Hence, by those merits, it is likely that this was the case for stories of Jesus walking on water and literally resurrecting his body from the dead. The present day 'Christianity', is perhaps the most notorious for that particular sort of mischief. There wouldn't be much wrong with those 'stories' if only they were not so fervent on passing them off as literal to the point where they start going contrary to reason.

This endeavor had little to do with spirituality and more to do with the need to exert political control. The stature of Jesus was no more than a meands to an end, as it has been thoroughly exploited by Constantine the Great.

There is no reason to believe that those who do not share the same beliefs about the 'Christ' as Constantine are not to be called Christians. A christian is most sensibly defined as one who follows Christ, or a man named Jesus. There were many other clans with various ideas in regards to who Jesus was and what he taught. Some are hardly compatible with the way he is today represented by the church. Indeed, chicanery of hermeneutics was manifest and rife.

There is nothing about scripture as a thing in itself that makes it holy, the only reason we consider it holy is because it was sanctified by our ancestors who likely lacked the ability to think critically and accepted whatever gave them a momentary sense of security. The Aztecs believed that sacrificing the flesh of their captured enemies in honor of their sun-god would prevent their apocalypse from taking place the night after! If their religion survived, this wouldn't be any less of a 'scripture' than Jesus saying love thy neighbor.

One can say that their religion didn't survive and Jesus's did because his was more morally acceptable, those that are morally unacceptable tend not to survive. That is certainly a sentimental illusion. In order for a religion to survive it has to create a society where sheep are kept neatly in line so noone can subvert the religion. And of course, it has to have 1 merit, however, it has to create order in society, in order for the society to survive while attempting to preserve the religion. The Aztecs have managed to do this despite their abominable practices and roguish ethic. They would likely have lasted to this very day had it not been for the Spaniards having taken them over.


Nonetheless, despite that we don't know much about concrete occurences of Jesus's life and specifics of his personality, it would be safe to conclude however, that he was a kind and a wise man searching for the true good in this world. Who was murdered by the brutal and the ignorant who were afraid that he'd debunk them for who they really were, and this would cause them to lose control over their community.

:hi: Blue Wing-

Ummmm- Could you say that in English, for densicles like me?

I think you're saying- Jesus was probably real;
What he was really like is uncertain, as you can't trust either what his followers said, or what his detractors said;
The stories of what miracles he performed are probably symbolic;
Constantine wasn't really a Christian.
We follow Christianity because its less gross that chopping out the heart of captured enemies, like the Aztecs did;
and Jesus was probably a good guy who was murdered by the bad guys.

Did I get that right?

Furthermore- Duuuhhhhh? Readin' yo postes makes me feel real stupid.....
 
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