Who Was Jesus?

[Ivy]

I don't know, but he would have brought it in Tupperware with his name written on the bottom with a Sharpie.

This, good sir, is blasphemy. He would have brought it in Corningware with one of those showercap Saran things on top because He lost the real top.

And the sharpie implies that if He didn't make it clear that it was His, someone else would take it. What kinda sinners you got up in here?

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't know, but he would have brought it in Tupperware with his name written on the bottom with a Sharpie.

This, good sir, is blasphemy. He would have brought it in Corningware with one of those showercap Saran things on top because He lost the real top.

And the Sharpie implies that if He didn't make it clear that it was His, someone else would take it. What kinda sinners you got up in here?

Are we looking at the MBTIc' South Carolina [insert state of choice] Synod taking shape?

 

[Oberon]

This, good sir, is blasphemy. He would have brought it in Corningware with one of those showercap Saran things on top because He lost the real top.

Honestly, the Inquisition was too easy on you people...

And the sharpie implies that if He didn't make it clear that it was His, someone else would take it. What kinda sinners you got up in here?

Why, forgiven ones of course...unlike y'all.

The names are on the bottom of the Tupperware for the perfectly GOOD reason that for every Tupperware container someone owns, there are five or six others in the church just like it, and we would never DREAM of taking home someone else's container, not even by accident. So the mark tells us which one is ours.

The Elect understand this.

 

[Ivy]

So you're a Calvinist as well! That just seals the deal.

*brandishes serving fork*

 

[Oberon]

So you're a Calvinist as well! That just seals the deal.

*brandishes serving fork*

Hey, wait...I thought you were a Quaker. Doesn't that mean you're non-violent?

 

[Ivy]

Hey, wait...I thought you were a Quaker. Doesn't that mean you're non-violent?

I'm in Episcopal mode now, buddy.

 

[Oberon]

Ah, okay.

[draws his trusty soup ladle from its sheath]

(You know, if nothing else, our avatars should have told us that this outcome was inevitable.)

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Leading to that next important question: WWJE?
(What Would Jesus Eat?)

Kosher.

:hi: Blue Wing-

Ummmm- Could you say that in English, for densicles like me?

I think you're saying- Jesus was probably real;
What he was really like is uncertain, as you can't trust either what his followers said, or what his detractors said;
The stories of what miracles he performed are probably symbolic;
Constantine wasn't really a Christian.
We follow Christianity because its less gross that chopping out the heart of captured enemies, like the Aztecs did;
and Jesus was probably a good guy who was murdered by the bad guys.

Did I get that right?

Furthermore- Duuuhhhhh? Readin' yo postes makes me feel real stupid.....

Considering you were able to say the same thing in about 50 words what took him about 500, I have to wonder which post is more intelligent.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm uncertain that one can attribute the popularity of what an outsider would call 'the Jesus cult' to Constantine's machinations. Constantine was beneficial in that he granted legal legitimacy to Christianity; but the followers of Jesus had labored under three centuries of suspicion and intermittent persecution (under Nero, Vespasian, and Domitian) prior to Constantine's rule. That isn't the path a potential proselyte chooses if he's looking for power...and while Constantine was beneficial to the church, I'm not certain how to any serious degree the church was beneficial to Constantine, at least in the ways that would have mattered to a Roman emperor..

What does this have to do with anything I said?

I find it bewildering that you appear content to think that you and others of your generation possess critical thinking skills that previous generations lacked. That seems nonsensical to me, unless you are considering the modern reverence for scripture as literal truth to be proof of such a lack.

Most people cant think critically. Neither today, nor in the past. I never insinuated that a conventional man of 2007 is likely to fair any better at critical thinking than the one who lived at the time of Jesus.

 

[Oberon]

What does this have to do with anything I said?

I thought it had something to do with this:

The stature of Jesus was no more than a meands to an end, as it has been thoroughly exploited by Constantine the Great.

I took that to mean that you thought that the stature of Jesus was no more than a means to an end, as it had been thoroughly exploited by Constantine the Great. Perhaps I misconstrued your post...?

Most people cant think critically. Neither today, nor in the past. I never insinuated that a conventional man of 2007 is likely to fair any better at critical thinking than the one who lived at the time of Jesus.

I probably overreached in assuming that because you wrote the following:

...it was sanctified by our ancestors who likely lacked the ability to think critically and accepted whatever gave them a momentary sense of security.

...that you were expressly contrasting those ancestors with people today. My apologies.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I thought it had something to do with this:



I took that to mean that you thought that the stature of Jesus was no more than a means to an end, as it had been thoroughly exploited by Constantine the Great. Perhaps I misconstrued your post...?



I probably overreached in assuming that because you wrote the following:



...that you were expressly contrasting those ancestors with people today. My apologies.

I have merely pointed out that people like Constantine exploited the stature of Jesus for political gain, and many have done this. Though I did not assert that this is what everyone was about who professed to be a disciple of Jesus.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

:hi: Blue Wing-

Ummmm- Could you say that in English, for densicles like me?

I think you're saying- Jesus was probably real;
What he was really like is uncertain, as you can't trust either what his followers said, or what his detractors said;
The stories of what miracles he performed are probably symbolic;
Constantine wasn't really a Christian.
We follow Christianity because its less gross that chopping out the heart of captured enemies, like the Aztecs did;
and Jesus was probably a good guy who was murdered by the bad guys.

Did I get that right?

Furthermore- Duuuhhhhh? Readin' yo postes makes me feel real stupid.....

We follow Christianity because it is part of tradition, being less gross than chopping the hearts out of living bodies has nothing to do with this. If that was our tradition, we'd be doing that instead of Christianity, as most people tend to follow whatever teaching is inculcated upon them.

 

[Oberon]

I have merely pointed out that people like Constantine exploited the stature of Jesus for political gain, and many have done this. Though I did not assert that this is what everyone was about who professed to be a disciple of Jesus.

My reply was to point out that while many have exploited the stature of Jesus for political gain, I'm not certain that Constantine was one of them. I posited for you the idea that maybe Constantine was of bigger benefit to the church than the church was to Constantine.

I'm not certain what advantage that publically adopting Christianity would have conveyed to the emperor; until that time Christianity was outlawed in the Empire, and therefore its followers had to avoid official notice. While it was only actively persecuted under three emperors, Christianity was illegal under all the emperors from its beginning to the time of Constantine (some 300 years more or less) and while a "don't ask/don't tell" policy was in place for much of that time, Christians who were publically revealed to be such (without the empire actively trying to ferret them out) were routinely executed.

For Constantine to have thought to take advantage of Christianity for political gain would have been like the current premier of China joining Falun Gong to reap the attendant political advantages...not a likely scenario.

While many prominent Romans joined the church after Constantine did, and many previously private Christians uncloseted themselves at the same time, this was because the authority of the emperor lent legal legitimacy to Christianity, not because the church yielded any particular advantage to Constantine.

Or so I read it. You're welcome to show me where I'm wrong.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

My reply was to point out that while many have exploited the stature of Jesus for political gain, I'm not certain that Constantine was one of them. I posited for you the idea that maybe Constantine was of bigger benefit to the church than the church was to Constantine.

I'm not certain what advantage that publically adopting Christianity would have conveyed to the emperor; until that time Christianity was outlawed in the Empire, and therefore its followers had to avoid official notice. While it was only actively persecuted under three emperors, Christianity was illegal under all the emperors from its beginning to the time of Constantine (some 300 years more or less) and while a "don't ask/don't tell" policy was in place for much of that time, Christians who were publically revealed to be such (without the empire actively trying to ferret them out) were routinely executed.

For Constantine to have thought to take advantage of Christianity for political gain would have been like the current premier of China joining Falun Gong to reap the attendant political advantages...not a likely scenario.

While many prominent Romans joined the church after Constantine did, and many previously private Christians uncloseted themselves at the same time, this was because the authority of the emperor lent legal legitimacy to Christianity, not because the church yielded any particular advantage to Constantine.

Or so I read it. You're welcome to show me where I'm wrong.

I see, you probably know your history better than I do. I wasnt necessarily referring to Constanine per se---was just trying to think of a figure to symbolize those who exploited Christianity for political gain.

 

[Oberon]

Oh. Okay.

 

[Crabapple]

We follow Christianity because it is part of tradition, being less gross than chopping the hearts out of living bodies has nothing to do with this. If that was our tradition, we'd be doing that instead of Christianity, as most people tend to follow whatever teaching is inculcated upon them.

Thank you, BlueWing.

 

[Totenkindly]

...as most people tend to follow whatever teaching is inculcated upon them.

I wish they had been taught to worship me!

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Oh. Okay.

Now, I will go back and say that a typical man of year 10 was more likely to be a non-thinker than a conventional man of present day. This is because back then society was less informed of science and philosophy and formal education was more difficult to obtain.

 

[Oberon]

Now, I will go back and say that a typical man of year 10 was more likely to be a non-thinker than a conventional man of present day. This is because back then society was less informed of science and philosophy and formal education was more difficult to obtain.

I will agree with that, and add that most people in the year 10 were too busy trying to scrape together some kind of living from day to day to have the slightest interest in philosophy.

 

[LIND]

Kant would say that in terms of teleological morality, we have faith (which he classifies as an attitude of the mind) and we can believe in a Higher being for which we have not or can not find any empirical proof in the sensorial sphere, in the teleological in nature. Yet Jesus who lived for a while in the sphere "of the senses" made the assertion that whoever has "seen him has seen the Father/God-I and my Father in heaven are one and the same"; the challenge that one is confronted with is whether to accept this ridiculous statement or to deny this beautiful truth! What matters for each person is whether they can accept Jesus' message, and that is "denial of the self and to follow him". But one thing that people are afraid of the most is to lose the self, something that each will lose either way in the long run (temporal), and not only to lose it but to entrust it into someone else's hands-Jesus'. For some this may be a big challenge, for me it is simple "He is my Lord and Savior".