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Is there?

cosmicdancer

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Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

No need for words...

A place beyond this?
 

lastrailway

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If there were such a place, I 'm not sure whether I 'd like to live there. What's in our heads and hearts can be too personal for everyone to know
 

Sahara

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If it's an afterlife vision akin to heaven that you are asking about, I can not tell you the answer, I feel that there isn't but I can't prove that.

If it's on this world, I am a lover of the idealised vision of how humanity could be, but have learnt much to my unhappiness that such a place will never be.
 

lastrailway

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Why do you not want anyone to know?

Well, if such a place as the one you suggested could exist, this could be each one's head. Where we have our personal worlds, our thoughts, and opinions, which we can filter them and then communicate them to other people in a way we see convenient each time.
Wouldn't you feel your privecy threatened if somebody could see directly into your head, things that only have meaning for you, things you want to keep them for yourself, etc.?
 

SolitaryWalker

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Quit thy childhood, my friend, and wake up.

:) I have so much respect for the INF idealistic vision, that I am sorry that I have to maintain almost the opposite of what you've insinuated.

Take a look....

''Somewhere in the 1600s a man who could not see, sat down to write what he thought would be the greatest poem in human history. He said it would include, in his words, ''things yet unattempted in prose or rhyme.'' It is the view of the modern world that he achieved just that. His poem, the paradise Lost, is considered the greatest epic in human history. Few poems take on such an enormous theme as Paradise Lost, a theme that is not less than the origin of evil in itself. The man who took on this ambitious challenge, and created a classic in the process, is a man who led a life of immense struggle, loss and sacrifice. In a sense, John Milton's life was a search for paradise-a life in which the poet became the poem.''


And

“ Spinoza lived an uneventful life…Outwardly he was a poor lensgrinder supporting himself by his labors and indulging in much study. It has been the fashion to indulge in sentimentality over the man whom Unamo called the tragic, sorrowful Jew of Amsterdam, cut off from his own people and leading a lonely and frustrated life..,For under a rather drab exterior there burned the inward glory, the clam clear light of mind that has looked upon the very face of God, and in the knowledge and in the intellectual love of God found peace and blessedness. "

The first is an INFP, a thorough-going dreamer/idealist who prided himself on being able to preserve purity of heart. The other, is a cynical realist who prided himself on remaining sober and objective all the way through. Milton wanted the to climb up the Tower of Babel into the very firmament. Marx(communism), another INTP, constructed a tower of his own, but not to reach heaven, but to bring heaven down to Earth.

I think that both of those propositions are humbug. Spinoza, on the other hand said, let it be that we neither reach heaven, nor bring it down to Earth. But create it within ourselves. A happy person is one who is not blown around thither and hither by external circumstances, but one who found inner peace and can adapt well enough as to avoid compromising its integrity. To be happy and to be true to self mean the same thing, and a happy person is one whose inner being is sound and can remain sound irrespectively of what morbid circumstances may be imposed upon it.

Learning how to deal with the world as it comes and figuring out a way to be happy with what you have paves the way for immortal wisdom. The heavenly gates shall only open when you stop longing to be in paradise (adjust external circumstances), but look within yourself. The true path to beautificaton lies only from within.

Voltaire, whose name I find it almost sacrilegeous to mention among all of these lofty ideals had his Candide come back to his own garden.

Yes, I am a believer in all of those lofty visions of eternal bliss, yet I think they are to be achieved in a radically different way than the INFs will tell you. Only through acceptance and understanding of this world as it is, and not striving for the world to come. The two are almost diametrically opposed to each other. After we have understood our environment and come to terms with our passions of disgust for the way it has turned out, our passion shall be tamed because we have to terms with them, and incidentally it will cease to be a passions. Only through acceptance of this world can we come to peace with ourselves and our environment.

In this way, I propose, INTs work side by side with INFs to pave the way for beautification, yet since these two paths are not compatible with one another, no more than one of them could ring true.
 
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Athenian200

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:) I have so much respect for the INF idealistic vision, that I am sorry that I have to maintain almost the opposite of what you've insinuated.

Yes, I am a believer in all of those lofty visions of eternal bliss, yet I think they are to be achieved in a radically different way than the INFs will tell you. Only through acceptance and understanding of this world as it is, and not striving for the world to come. The two are almost diametrically opposed to each other. After we have understood our environment and come to terms with our passions of disgust for the way it has turned out, our passion shall be tamed because we have to terms with them, and incidentally it will cease to be a passions. Only through acceptance of this world can we come to peace with ourselves and our environment.

In this way, I propose, INTs work side by side with INFs to pave the way for beautification, yet since these two paths are not compatible with one another, no more than one of them could ring true.

You really weren't kidding when you said you could identify with INFP's, were you? Some of what you said had almost the same idealistic overtone. I can appreciate that.

But even I wouldn't presume to say that the ideal I want for is achievable. Let me explain it this way. To totally understand, feel connected to, and care about people is not achievable, just as infinity is not achievable, no matter how long you count. But I think of it this way: "If you look to a gown of gold, you will at least get a sleeve of it." What that means is, if you try for something that you want, you'll get something out of it. And while I'll never fully feel understood or fully understand another person, each communication and understanding brings me closer, just as counting brings me closer to one end of infinity, even though I will never actually reach it.
 

tovlo

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Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

No need for words...

A place beyond this?

I think that in the best of relationships, the intimacy of love comes close.
 

Athenian200

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I think that in the best of relationships, the intimacy of love comes close.

I disagree. Intimacy involves a lack of thought and awareness. It seems to be beyond all that, because your faculties are impaired when you intimately care about someone. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, that just means it isn't what we were talking about.

I believe the most pure kind of compassion and understanding is the kind you feel for someone you will never meet or communicate with, but have only read their writing. When the feeling of resonance doesn't promise anything, bring you acceptance, or justify your views, and is based solely on a comprehension of the idea they were trying to convey, that is when the understanding is the most pure.

So in other words, the deepest form of sympathy possible in reality is between two authors who never communicate with one another. If they read one another's writing, their understanding of one another's writing meets the aforementioned conditions, and they never have and never will meet or in any way knowingly affect one another, that is the purest form of mutual understanding possible.
 

tovlo

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I disagree.

Well, I disagree with your disagreement. :)

I don't know. It's possible I've misunderstood the op, but I will say my experience of intimacy reflects the experience the words in the op describe in a dyadic way.

You are free to disagree in theory, but I'm afraid you will have little basis to comment on my experience which does come close to an experience of being able to drop masks, pretence, barriers, and falsities; where I often seem to sense what's in the heart of my beloved and he often seems to sense what's in mine - without words - my pain, my love, my joy, my sadness...no need for words.

It's not perfect, but I said it came close. It's certainly the closest to what was described that I've ever experienced.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Well, I disagree with your disagreement. :)

I don't know. It's possible I've misunderstood the op, but I will say my experience of intimacy reflects the experience the words in the op describe in a dyadic way.

You are free to disagree in theory, but I'm afraid you will have little basis to comment on my experience which does come close to an experience of being able to drop masks, pretence, barriers, and falsities; where I often seem to sense what's in the heart of my beloved and he often seems to sense what's in mine - without words - my pain, my love, my joy, my sadness...no need for words.

It's not perfect, but I said it came close. It's certainly the closest to what was described that I've ever experienced.

:) I much sympathize with your longing for true intimacy. However, I do not believe that man is capable of it untill he/she has found inner peace. If he/she has not they will attempt to find compensation from their partner, then 'intimacy' would be no more than a travesty. Perhaps the relationship will give you the inspiration to truly search yourself and find the inner peace, as it will replenish you with positive energy. But, I suspect, that unless you're coming into the relationship with a strong sense of inner peace, it isn't going to last, and as soon as its up so will be the genuine intimacy in your relationship.

First, you find inner peace and then intimacy with others will follow as a necessary entailment once you're called upon. But then you should take good care to keep yourself centered so the external world does not debase your inner calm.
 

Athenian200

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I will agree that for you, tovlo, that might be closest. But I could never truly feel anything without words. Words are the deepest source of emotion to me. Without words, I believe I would feel nothing at all.

The only problem is, I don't think it's really "sensing their feelings" the way you described. I think the only thing people share in that sense is a mutual compassion and understanding of one another's habits. Beautiful, perhaps, but not a pure understanding.

For me, theory is more and greater than experience, so I take your allowance for me to disagree with you in theory as sufficient.
 

aeon

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I disagree. Intimacy involves a lack of thought and awareness. It seems to be beyond all that, because your faculties are impaired when you intimately care about someone.

My experience of intimacy is that it calls upon my faculties and awareness, and indeed, requires them.

That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, that just means it isn't what we were talking about.

Based on the OP's questions, it seemed to answer them directly.

I believe the most pure kind of compassion and understanding is the kind you feel for someone you will never meet or communicate with, but have only read their writing. When the feeling of resonance doesn't promise anything, bring you acceptance, or justify your views, and is based solely on a comprehension of the idea they were trying to convey, that is when the understanding is the most pure.

So in other words, the deepest form of sympathy possible in reality is between two authors who never communicate with one another. If they read one another's writing, their understanding of one another's writing meets the aforementioned conditions, and they never have and never will meet or in any way knowingly affect one another, that is the purest form of mutual understanding possible.

I think understanding exists in the context of a feedback loop where those things expressed by a person are restated by another and in so hearing the expressor may decide if they have been understood.

My sense of what you said is that you described the highest form of emotional and cognitive resonance.



cheers,
Ian
 

sassafrassquatch

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Jul 20, 2007
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Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

No need for words...

A place beyond this?

That sounds horrible, if such a place were to exist I would avoid it at all costs.
 

wildcat

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Jun 8, 2007
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Is there somewhere where we can drop all the masks, pretence, barriers, falsities...

Somewhere where you know what's in the heart of everyone else and they know whats in yours - without words - your pain, your love, your joy, your sadness...

No need for words...

A place beyond this?
The Romans had the baths. You still have a Roman bath in Constantinopol.
The Turks have the steam baths and the Icelanders have the hot springs. The Japanese have their own hot baths.
The Permians and the Swedes have the Siberian Sauna. Take your pick.

The travel bureaus may offer more even more variety.
 

Athenian200

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My experience of intimacy is that it calls upon my faculties and awareness, and indeed, requires them.

I was referring to cognitive faculties and awareness, actually. A feeling doesn't mean anything to me until it's processed and understood somehow. When people are in a relationship/married, it invokes all kinds of endorphins, hormones, and amygdala functions. Enough that I consider it a semi-instinctive type of emotion that isn't completely related to your true feelings or your true personality.

If you want to be technical, I'll admit that it answered the question according to all the specified parameters, but I don't personally agree with it.


I think understanding exists in the context of a feedback loop where those things expressed by a person are restated by another and in so hearing the expressor may decide if they have been understood.

Technically, you are right. But adding that parameter changes my answer. If the two must interact, then the highest form would still be between two writers who admire each others work before meeting, and then write letters, and never influence each other in any other way. I'm sorry, I think words and ideas are the highest and purest form of emotional expression, so I'm probably not equipped to answer the original post.
My sense of what you said is that you described the highest form of emotional and cognitive resonance.

Yes, and I think it was worth describing, too. Isn't it a more beautiful and pure idea than a relationship between lovers?

Anyway, we may have different ideas regarding what is an emotion or not, since I'm Ni dominant, and only have Fe as my secondary. You may be able to feel your emotions more directly. Fe is a more outer directed and analytical approach to feelings (but just as deep in my opinion). So our views maybe equally valid.
 
O

Oberon

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If there were such a place, I 'm not sure whether I 'd like to live there. What's in our heads and hearts can be too personal for everyone to know

That's because you don't trust other people with it...but the post topic speaks to that very issue. Is there a place where you can trust the others with what you hold most dear? Where you can be unguarded? Where you can be vulnerable?
 

tovlo

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Everyone on this board should read this essay, especially the INFs.
This was my personal inspiration: Bertrand Russell, A Free Man's Worship

I enjoyed the essay.

The compassion in my heart sang along with these words:

Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instil faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need--of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives; let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as ourselves.


BlueWing, I do think in reading the essay and re-reading your posts to this thread that perhaps I understand a bit more clearly the point you're trying to make here and how it relates to the opening poster's question.

Would these words of yours contain some summary of your point of view?

Learning how to deal with the world as it comes and figuring out a way to be happy with what you have paves the way for immortal wisdom. The heavenly gates shall only open when you stop longing to be in paradise (adjust external circumstances), but look within yourself. The true path to beautificaton lies only from within.

Do you see the OP as describing a longing for paradise? If so, do you see that longing as unlikely to bring a person to true peace? Do you believe that true peace can only be experienced when you learn how to deal with the world as it comes and figure out a way to be happy with what you have?

If so, I feel agreement with this idea.

Yet I don't find the idea inconsistent with imagining what could be or with delighting in the tastes of those imaginations we might find present in our reality.

It seems to me the block to peace might come in a belief that happiness rests in a realization of ideals. I think ideals are ideals, reality something else. Ideals shed a light on reality, illuminating the richness of it's colors.

I experience and delight in subtle shades of the OP ideal through intimate human relationship("Intimacy is linked with feelings of closeness, safety, trust and transparency among partners in a collaborative relationship."). What I experience is reality, not realized ideal, but I believe my engagement in this reality is greater for having the ideal to light the way.

I wonder if perhaps our realities naturally move closer to the ideal when we allow it's light to guide our steps.

I don't discount the possibility that the fullness of what the op describes might somewhere be or one day come to be reality. I don't base my happiness on it being or becoming so, but I don't limit potential by saying it cannot be or rejecting what of it does present in my world.

I have always found compelling an idealistic inclination to dream of what could be, grounded in a realistic acceptance of what presents in each moment. Sometimes life gets unbalanced, but always within me is a deep respect for the value of both.
 
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