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Deception and God

Into It

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I hunger for refutations of the following since my present company was unable to provide me with them.


Is not anything misrepresentative of reality a deception? Perhaps then, a deception is not good or bad per se, if in the instance of its being put into place naturally or by accident it misrepresents. Certainly though, if a deception is designed and set it place with a clear purpose, its designer is a deceiver. And a deceiver could only be good if he misrepresents something wicked or harmful, in this he is a protector. Even then, to label his actions good or bad relies on the situation and depends on the observer; it is a debate of ethics for another time. If a deceiver reveals what is true and then conceals evidence of its proof, surely he means only to confuse. Confusion is a state that is most positive only if all reality is harmful. In confusion, like madness or delusion, reality cannot be grasped, and while the state itself is not positive, it may be a lesser of two evils. In all cases then, confusion is evil to some degree. Thus one who intentionally confuses is a particularly wicked specie of deceiver.

A particularly low way to confuse would be to create a good deal of evidence that leads to Conclusion A, while saying that the less reasonable Conclusion B is true. To sharpen this character’s fangs, we could say that he delights in his power to punish those who choose to believe in Conclusion A.

Of course, this is applicable to the Christian God and his many inconsistencies. I hesitate to give a list of examples, but I will say briefly that it does not appear, as a reasonable conclusion, that planets appeared a day after light, or that animals were created after plants in the same fixed increment of time that man was created after animals. The most rudimentary geology shows that the layers of rock that constitute the earth’s surface were created at very different times. The fossils within also provide evidence that the earth is quite old. Cain and Abel’s geneaology, provided in Genesis, shows that the earth is very new. Since the scientific evidence of an old earth is so abundant, most Christians today believe in the ‘Gap Theory,’ which states that the “days” were really much longer than days and that there were gaps between them. So, they take Genesis as a metaphor, though the rest of the Old Testament, which is not quite as easily or obviously refuted to the Christian, is still widely regarded as literal. If even one statement of God’s is a lie, then all we thought we knew of him crumbles.

The Christian may say that my argument is fallible because believing in the God of the Bible is as reasonable as if not more reasonable than rejecting him. If I thought that this argument was decent, I would spend more time refuting it, but experience has taught me that proponents of this argument relinquish it relatively quickly in reasonable debate, and then they turn to “faith.”

It may be worth mentioning as a side-note that if we are supposed to believe in God through faith, then reason is not the gift I thought it was. It is a curse and a mockery. As any chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so faith is only as valuable as it is supported by reason. As the strongest link in the chain is an irrelevant matter, so too is faith irrelevant as its only value is awarded by reason. For instance, a man drives off a cliff and may have faith that he will not die when he hits the ground. This faith would be weak and of little value, and in fact no man would have this faith, because he would analyze what he knows about blunt force trauma, and his faith would be near worthless, if faith can be said to have any value at all. My faith in a round earth is worth more. I have not ever seen the entire planet at once, except through photographs that I cannot be sure were real. But I have also heard stories of planes flying in a straight line and eventually arriving right where they left off. My reason tells me the earth is round; there is enough evidence to convince me. My faith in this could be considered of more value than the faith of the previous example. Since the values I am ascribing to faith come directly from the validity of the reason used to assess the situations to which the faith pertains, the value is only stamped onto faith: faith truly has no value. And so, anyone who falls back on faith is only doing so because reason fails them.

So is God a deceiver? Or is this 'God' simply not God?
 

Sentura

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Ignosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if there truly is a god, what do you think your chances are of fully understanding what he/she/it/them/all is? god, as we treat him, is a personification. nothing more, nothing less. religious and anti religious people have not understood it yet: if god truly exists, then we must ascend beyond humanity to understand all.
 

Grayscale

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So is God a deceiver? Or is this 'God' simply not God?

deceit isnt a necessary element to what you're saying, but perversion is. the question is, if there is a God, was such perversion his doing or ours? who is more likely to err, humans or an omniscient being?

isnt what we often, from our limited perspective, often view as inconsistencies merely a lack of understanding of connecting reasons we dont see or understand? it is an assumption to say they simply dont exist.

which is more enlightening to us, an in depth explanation of a design with intricacy far behind human comprehension, or the relevant whole? that is, if we recognize it as true. what motivates us to know everything and thus doubt what we do not... to be omniscient... to be like God would, when we are not God? if God existed and created our universe, does science disprove him or attempt to uncover and decipher the engineering behind the universe? science disproves the ignorant not the omniscient.
 

Athenian200

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It may be worth mentioning as a side-note that if we are supposed to believe in God through faith, then reason is not the gift I thought it was. It is a curse and a mockery. As any chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so faith is only as valuable as it is supported by reason. As the strongest link in the chain is an irrelevant matter, so too is faith irrelevant as its only value is awarded by reason.

Interestingly, a lot of Christians might agree with this. Why do you think it was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? A snake represents cunning?

Basically, the hidden idea in the story was that reason/logic was the cause of sin. A curse that arose from eating the apple, so to speak. The idea is that pain and death are the price of knowledge.

Personally, I think whoever wrote the story was a Feeling type who hadn't properly integrated Thinking into their psyche, and projected "evil" qualities onto it. The moral of the story is basically "Ignorance and obedience is bliss." Not a moral I like, honestly.
 

Grayscale

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Interestingly, a lot of Christians might agree with this. Why do you think it was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? A snake represents cunning?

Basically, the hidden idea in the story was that reason/logic was the cause of sin. A curse that arose from eating the apple, so to speak.

Personally, I think whoever wrote the story was a Feeling type who hadn't properly integrated Thinking into their psyche, and projected "evil" qualities onto it. The moral of the story is basically "Ignorance and obedience is bliss." Not a moral I like, honestly.

i think the idea is actually one of purpose, and if the difference between humans and God could be explained as knowledge, that humans were tempted out of our place and purpose by the ultimate lie. if humans had choice but were innocent and without knowledge of good and evil, i.e., the full spectrum of our own ability, then the deceit was the failure to mention that we don't have the necessary knowledge to understand the fundamental problems behind the harmful end of that spectrum, 'like God' but not actually God. reason is still a tool we use to rule the earth. the hardest part is the purpose of the existence of the tree itself, but i think that could be explained as the entity which separates us from God, at least in its intention, because we do not and should not have everything.

presumably, ever since, humanity has struggled with the same lie and grasping for the knowledge required to become the god of our world, it is the root of ultimately all that tempts man, money, power, fame, etc. of course, by now, such choices are much more shrouded by prevalent reality and harder to avoid.
 

sunset5678

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I believe in God because I've seen a few people that made a mockery of people to embarrass them out of using their skills or talents and were willing to poison their relationships and took advantage of knowing that they depended on these people
by using subtle threats that they would turn those people agains them if they didn't comply with their expectations and use their skills to make them look good get what they had coming. Now I understand why the bible teaches minding your own bus-
iness and staying away from people that gossip because he knows how to handle
things...maybe that's why irony is so popular in fiction because it happens in real life.
 

Kalach

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I hunger for refutations of the following since my present company was unable to provide me with them.[...]

Famously, someone somewhere once refuted someone by saying, "I refute thee thus," and kicked him in the shin. As I recall it was a refutation of solipsism. But anyway....

This is a fairly big if (because I skipped a lot of the convolutions and made some assumptions), but if I understand the text correctly, you mean a lovely and effective fiction is good if it is produced by someone with suitable knowledge of the dangers that will be avoided if the fiction is accepted, and proves the goodness of the deceiver. Thus, God, a gigantic and effective self-made fiction, is worth loving. And having faith in.


And generally speaking, coincidentally, it's okay for people to lie to people they love because they love them, and one should love them back for lying to one in one's best interest.


So it's a really good argument if God is ENFP and really doesn't want to show too much of His true heart.
 

antireconciler

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so
the question is, if there is a God, was such perversion his doing or ours? who is more likely to err, humans or an omniscient being?

In other words, confusion is often a projection if we think of it as actually being IN what we do not understand, rather than a result of our own lack of clarity. There's something to the idea that confusion is always a projection, if we want to say that the universe follows a rational structure, in other words, an order which can be captured in conceptual thought. There's something, of course, to the idea that everything can be grasped by conceptual thought, for there is nothing before us which is not concept to us, and it is contradictory to point to anything, through thought, which is not conceptual, rather trivially. So we conclude from the beginning that the confusion is always our own if we see it.

I hunger for refutations of the following since my present company was unable to provide me with them.
...
So is God a deceiver? Or is this 'God' simply not God?

Good post. I find your arguments well thought out.

I'll try to understand what you've written, since it is a lot to grasp all at once, as an argument from the hiddenness of God first, from the scientific incredibility of the Christian creation story, literally or as metaphor second, and from the inconsistency of the reason/faith dichotomy last.

I don't know, should we take it each part at a time?

What can we say about the hiddenness of God? Even if it is true that the hiddenness of God, whatever He amounts to, is a product of our OWN confusion, as it would seem from Greyscale's comment, the question remains, why should God make it difficult enough for us to become confused in the first place? Why not grant us greater clarity from the outset? It appears to be a kind of malice, almost, that we should have to struggle to understand. In this way, we can view the hiddenness of God as a variant of the greater problem of evil, formulated by Epicurus.

Why should God permit pain and strife?

I don't know, what do you think? I've talked so much about this by now I'd rather just listen. If you want a rational ear who can follow your arguments, PM me. I'd enjoy that.
 

Totenkindly

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Personally, I think whoever wrote the story was a Feeling type who hadn't properly integrated Thinking into their psyche, and projected "evil" qualities onto it. The moral of the story is basically "Ignorance and obedience is bliss." Not a moral I like, honestly.

Actually, you could be REALLY wrong on that.

It's not an illogical deduction in the LEAST to promote trust and obedience... IF and only if the object of one's devotion is perfect, omnipotent, omniscience, and benevolent.

But that's the assumption in this faith, isn't it? That God is all those things?
 

antireconciler

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Famously, someone somewhere once refuted someone by saying, "I refute thee thus," and kicked him in the shin. As I recall it was a refutation of solipsism. But anyway....

Samuel Johnson "refuting" George Berkeley? (Do I win?)
 

Oom

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God may be a deceiver and may not. A better question is to ask if he/she exists. If god is absolute, and all knowing, omniscient as some say, then why would it need to make the universe at all? Did it make life to see what would happen if beings were given free reign over their destinies?

If it did create us as some sort of test, then it is not omniscient because an all knowing being would have already known the conclusion of the experiment. Nothing else effectively needs to exist if all knowledge is contained in one location.
 

Athenian200

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Actually, you could be REALLY wrong on that.

It's not an illogical deduction in the LEAST to promote trust and obedience... IF and only if the object of one's devotion is perfect, omnipotent, omniscience, and benevolent.

Well, I probably am. But I still liked the idea enough to express it. :)

I definitely don't like blind trust and obedience, even in that kind of situation. It seems to subtract something important from being self-aware, from being human. That's just my own values, though. I've never appreciated faith at all, so it's hard to for me to see things from that perspective.

But that's the assumption in this faith, isn't it? That God is all those things?

Yeah, it does. That's probably why it's so hard for me to understand. :thinking:

Gnosticism takes a different approach, I think. It makes a lot more sense to me subjectively than the traditional interpretations. That probably says something about the difference between how they see reality, and how I tend to see it, though I'm not sure what.
 

Fluffywolf

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I think there is a lot of deception in the bible and religions. But all due to the doing of humans themselves, and not an omnipotent being. :p
 

Into It

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And generally speaking, coincidentally, it's okay for people to lie to people they love because they love them, and one should love them back for lying to one in one's best interest.


So it's a really good argument if God is ENFP and really doesn't want to show too much of His true heart.


In regards to the lies, YES, a lie to avoid pain is no evil. But why should the world be created in such a way that a lie would be necessary to protect one from it? Obviously it's more complicated than that and depends on the circumstance, though. And whether it is better to believe in what is true if it is painful than a lie that is not, that's just a whole 'nother discussion, and one that I haven't even been able to formulate an opinion on yet. Actually, I e-mailed bluewing his opinion on this question last night.:cheese:

But the assumption from the Bible is that God is all good, which is the reason for the argument in the first place.


And not only does God not show much of His true heart, but the rest of his anatomy as well.


But friend, I do indeed reveal my true self, and this is in fact the second time that you have claimed within a thread of mine that an ENFP would not do so. Judging by your many posts, I would guess you've said this more than twice. I pity your experiences with ENFP's, but even more than that, I pity the ENFP's who you know, reluctant to reveal themselves. As an ENFP, I should say that I would feel withered and alone if I did not feel I was understood and known for who I am.

And on that note, being unable or unwilling to reveal your true self is a poor, undesirable quality. If you notice that you are ascribing such a negative characteristic to an entire type, rethink, rethink, rethink.

Now, as for the statement about refutation, I think it was a good idea, because I got 12 responses to my argument, and my argument was not particularly compelling. But yes, for that kind of statement I do deserve a kick in the shin, though I never understood that [anecdote?] How is a kick in the shin a refutation to an argument, I wonder?
 

Kalach

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In regards to the lies, YES, a lie to avoid pain is no evil.

Wanna bet?

It sets another value, perhaps a whole 'nother set of values, above my own, my own being that I want to, and will, know what is true. I call it a value. It's more like a need. Y'all wanna cut me off from what I need?

But why should the world be created in such a way that a lie would be necessary to protect one from it?

Because God is a deceiver?

Or faith is at its core an accepted and valued contradiction: I cannot see it but I believe it, I cannot touch it but I love it, I don't know that He is there, but I know He is there.

But friend, I do indeed reveal my true self, and this is in fact the second time that you have claimed within a thread of mine that an ENFP would not do so. Judging by your many posts, I would guess you've said this more than twice. I pity your experiences with ENFP's, but even more than that, I pity the ENFP's who you know, reluctant to reveal themselves. As an ENFP, I should say that I would feel withered and alone if I did not feel I was understood and known for who I am.

And on that note, being unable or unwilling to reveal your true self is a poor, undesirable quality. If you notice that you are ascribing such a negative characteristic to an entire type, rethink, rethink, rethink.

You know I'm INTJ, right? I'm about as likely to toss out one or two experiences by themselves and call them truth as I am to sacrifice truth for good feeling. The ENFP reluctance to reveal is an ENFP-made statement. There's lots like it on this site made by other ENFPs. Which is not proof either. It does contribute to an intuition, however. Which intuition does not, btw, preclude desire to finally reveal, just states that wariness exists.

And wariness like that might even modify perception of value systems.

And make a picture of God. As in, if God were to love, how would God love? What is God's love like? Is it like mine?


Which is the kick in the shin referred to.




Eee, look at me, coming on strong. But my intuition's telling me I got something wrong there... spelled it out wrong, didn't hear enough from the source... (And that part about not using one or two experiences to call truth... that's gonna come back at me...)

So, what is God's love like?
 

Into It

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Wanna bet?

It sets another value, perhaps a whole 'nother set of values, above my own, my own being that I want to, and will, know what is true. I call it a value. It's more like a need. Y'all wanna cut me off from what I need?



Because God is a deceiver?

Or faith is at its core an accepted and valued contradiction: I cannot see it but I believe it, I cannot touch it but I love it, I don't know that He is there, but I know He is there.



You know I'm INTJ, right? I'm about as likely to toss out one or two experiences by themselves and call them truth as I am to sacrifice truth for good feeling. The ENFP reluctance to reveal is an ENFP-made statement. There's lots like it on this site made by other ENFPs. Which is not proof either. It does contribute to an intuition, however. Which intuition does not, btw, preclude desire to finally reveal, just states that wariness exists.

And wariness like that might even modify perception of value systems.

And make a picture of God. As in, if God were to love, how would God love? What is God's love like? Is it like mine?


Which is the kick in the shin referred to.




Eee, look at me, coming on strong. But my intuition's telling me I got something wrong there... spelled it out wrong, didn't hear enough from the source... (And that part about not using one or two experiences to call truth... that's gonna come back at me...)

So, what is God's love like?

Sorry, I don't know how to split quotes.

KALACH:Wanna bet?

It sets another value, perhaps a whole 'nother set of values, above my own, my own being that I want to, and will, know what is true. I call it a value. It's more like a need. Y'all wanna cut me off from what I need?


It's almost as if you ignored the rest of my paragraph...

"Obviously it's more complicated than that and depends on the circumstance, though. And whether it is better to believe in what is true if it is painful than a lie that is not, that's just a whole 'nother discussion, and one that I haven't even been able to formulate an opinion on yet."

So obviously i wouldn't "bet" against you as I haven't formulated an opinion on the issue yet, but if you prefer truth to your detriment, be my guest. In such an instance, hiding the truth from you would be malicious. But what, then, is the value of truth that brings sadness? Truth is sought not for its own sake, but because those who seek it yearn for the feeling of enlightenment- of a full understanding of the picture. If the picture is grotesque, though, I would not force one to bear it, if I felt the opposite would be in his better interest. And I wouldn't feel guilt because 'lying' is against a commandment, I strive for virtue by reaching my own conclusions, born of my own contemplation, and have no reason to adopt others' dogma. Those rules of morality would only govern my actions, and have no bearing on actual morality. Moving on-

KALACH:The ENFP reluctance to reveal is an ENFP-made statement. There's lots like it on this site made by other ENFPs.

Fair enough. I am aware that you are not ignorant enough to think that this applies to all members of the type (if you are so ignorant, correct me), and you must be allowed to make such general and global statements, otherwise we wouldn't be able to talk about type in a practical manner at all. So let's forget about this and I'll put my loaded arrow back in the quiver.

KALACH:Or faith is at its core an accepted and valued contradiction: I cannot see it but I believe it, I cannot touch it but I love it, I don't know that He is there, but I know He is there.

Anorexia and diamond rings taught me that delusion is a disease spread most easily among large masses, and what is accepted and valued, outside of the scientific community in which value has no place, tends to be unreasonable and in many cases stupid. Only since so many people share this delusion can one say that she both "knows and does not know" something, admit that it is a contradiction, and persist that the ONLY thing that contradicts itself and is real is faith. At the moment, I am both typing on my computer in Colorado and standing right behind you. Not reasonable.


KALACH:What is God's love like? Is it like mine?

Kalach, I cannot fathom what your love is like as I have not witnessed it yet.

The same goes for God.

But I will speculate, meaninglessly I might add, for the sake of this conversation that I am thoroughly enjoying.

God created everything. So we need not imagine what his love would be like in our present universe. We can imagine a different universe, in which we were not people who have pain and selfishness psychologically engrained as evolutionary imperatives. We are not people at all. We are some different kind of being, and we felt only love, only happiness. And this love is nothing like your love, Kalach, it is much much stronger, more constant, more effective and you are replete with it. It is twice as strong, no, a hundred, NO! a trillion times as strong, and as we are not human, we are of a physiology that can take such emotion.

I have to take a break, more soon.
 

Kalach

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Do you see what happens, people? Do you see now?!

Let this be a warning to you all. You literally do have to wait until they're ready to say what's really on their mind.



Luckily, the avalanche of words is so much easier on the ears when it's written.
 

Into It

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Do you see what happens, people? Do you see now?!

Let this be a warning to you all. You literally do have to wait until they're ready to say what's really on their mind.



Luckily, the avalanche of words is so much easier on the ears when it's written.


I may use many words, but I have much to say. Truthfully, your response is disappointing in its brevity! I half-expected and wholly hoped for a defense of faith, (which I still welcome) or a dissection of my statements, exposing ill logic and delivering several kicks to my shins.

If this is what you were talking about to begin with, about ENFPs hiding how they feel... My first post was an argument. It was a logical progression of truths. My feelings were not relevant, but they were far from hidden. Perhaps you do not see the feelings that are implied and not said, which is fairly common with INTJ's I have heard and observed. My brother is an INTJ and I've been in a cabin with 3 INTJ's for the past week. This is something I have noticed recently more than ever because of the situation I'm in (I didn't use the word predicament!) A weak Fi would be the only explanation I could offer. Is your Fi weak? That would magnify this problem. But those with strong Fi have their passions swirling within, but sharing them is a process that requires expending a bit of extra energy, but I believe that most ENFPs act in accordance with their beliefs. They must, this is the nature of Fi and authenticity is a main focus of all NF's. So I guess I just still don't agree with or understand this claim unfortunately.
 

Into It

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I may use many words, but I have much to say. Truthfully, your response is disappointing in its brevity! I half-expected and wholly hoped for a defense of faith, (which I still welcome) or a dissection of my statements, exposing ill logic and delivering several kicks to my shins.

If this is what you were talking about to begin with, about ENFPs hiding how they feel... My first post was an argument. It was a logical progression of truths. My feelings were not relevant, but they were far from hidden. Perhaps you do not see the feelings that are implied and not said, which is fairly common with INTJ's I have heard and observed. My brother is an INTJ and I've been in a cabin with 3 INTJ's for the past week. This is something I have noticed recently more than ever because of the situation I'm in (I didn't use the word predicament!) A weak Fi would be the only explanation I could offer. Is your Fi weak? That would magnify this problem. But those with strong Fi have their passions swirling within, but sharing them is a process that requires expending a bit of extra energy, but I believe that most ENFPs act in accordance with their beliefs. They must, this is the nature of Fi and authenticity is a main focus of all NF's. So I guess I just still don't agree with or understand this claim unfortunately.

Edit: This girl drives me karazy! In person we would be fast friends.
 

Kalach

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I may use many words, but I have much to say. Truthfully, your response is disappointing in its brevity! I half-expected and wholly hoped for a defense of faith, (which I still welcome) or a dissection of my statements, exposing ill logic and delivering several kicks to my shins.

Well see, you're using the "flurry" technique, so named for its similarity to a snowstorm. It's a method of proving something, and everyone does remain unsure of what exactly, but it works by bullshittin' til they quittin'.

And there's no particular payoff working through the snowstorm this early, this early being before you've formulated a statement of your deeper point, and anyone concluding too much is going to have the carpet yanked out when you follow up with another revelation, so while we wait we can haz sum laffs and point some fingers. And toss in a few focusers every so often. Like,...

So, what was the love of God, again?
 
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