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Deception and God

ADISCIPLE

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Yahweh God does not lie - ever.

I understand you're Christian, and your faith, in which I will completely respect. But none of us will truly know until we die. I know this is such an overstated phrase but that is because it is true. I respect Christians, I really do, but I'm afraid they are going to need some serious consolidation of belief among them for the religion to last then next century or two, especially with the way the world is moving.
 

ThinkingAboutIt

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I understand you're Christian, and your faith, in which I will completely respect. But none of us will truly know until we die. I know this is such an overstated phrase but that is because it is true. I respect Christians, I really do, but I'm afraid they are going to need some serious consolidation of belief among them for the religion to last then next century or two, especially with the way the world is moving.

Yes, "Christian" is a broad term today that causes much confusion and strife (many think it includes multiple religions with multiple paths to God), so I'll say that I believe in, follow, and thank Jesus Christ (Yeshua) for my salvation. That is the original terminology of "Christian" meaning "Little Christ".

You are right, that 'christianity' will not be here forever - God said "And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Without the Holy Spirit, man has no conscience because of sin. Another aspect is that if you read the book of Daniel, you will see that prophecy given to man by God thousands of years ago has been fulfilled.

Back to the original post...the reason I said that Yahweh God doesn't lie is because that was the bottom line of the op's post - that God is either a liar or deceiver, and that title belongs to satan, not Yahweh God.
 

ADISCIPLE

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Yes, "Christian" is a broad term today that causes much confusion and strife (many think it includes multiple religions with multiple paths to God), so I'll say that I believe in, follow, and thank Jesus Christ (Yeshua) for my salvation. That is the original terminology of "Christian" meaning "Little Christ".

You are right, that 'christianity' will not be here forever - God said "And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Without the Holy Spirit, man has no conscience because of sin. Another aspect is that if you read the book of Daniel, you will see that prophecy given to man by God thousands of years ago has been fulfilled.

Back to the original post...the reason I said that Yahweh God doesn't lie is because that was the bottom line of the op's post - that God is either a liar or deceiver, and that title belongs to satan, not Yahweh God.

I think the reference you stated giving man one hundred and twenty years was the during the life of Moses and was referring to the life of a human being. Saying the human being is the flesh and the spirit wouldn't dwell inside the flesh forever. I don't think it was referring to the future Church.

And when you say "Yahweh God" are you saying God is the God of a certain nation? Or that your God is the same as the God that protected the Israelites? Because when I refer to God I think of him as more along the lines of the entire universe. Sorry for my ignorance, your just speaking out of my terms. I've read the text multiple times but I can't quote any scripture.
 

ThinkingAboutIt

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I think the reference you stated giving man one hundred and twenty years was the during the life of Moses and was referring to the life of a human being. Saying the human being is the flesh and the spirit wouldn't dwell inside the flesh forever. I don't think it was referring to the future Church.

And when you say "Yahweh God" are you saying God is the God of a certain nation? Or that your God is the same as the God that protected the Israelites? Because when I refer to God I think of him as more along the lines of the entire universe. Sorry for my ignorance, your just speaking out of my terms. I've read the text multiple times but I can't quote any scripture.

Perhaps I misunderstood the prior posts...I wasn't focused on life expectancy, rather that the bible agrees with what you said - the Holy Spirit will not strive with man for much longer, and once gone, man will no longer be under conviction so it will be pretty bad.

Yes, Yahweh (YHWH) is God's real name. 'god' can be or mean anything, but there is only one true God, and you are right, it is Jehovah, God of Israel - I AM THAT WHICH I AM.

Back on topic to the OP:

It may be worth mentioning as a side-note that if we are supposed to believe in God through faith, then reason is not the gift I thought it was. It is a curse and a mockery. As any chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so faith is only as valuable as it is supported by reason.


Rational reasoning is given to us, and we are expected to use it, but what Yahweh God wants is for us to walk in faith, and faith is often 'unrational'. Why does He want us to do it? Because it forces us to have a relationship with Him and stay close to Him. Because we get to stand back and watch Him do amazing things that we could never do in our own power. We are created for relationship with Him and we are created for one main purpose - to glorify Him, and we never glorify Him for what we can do ourselves.

As the strongest link in the chain is an irrelevant matter, so too is faith irrelevant as its only value is awarded by reason. For instance, a man drives off a cliff and may have faith that he will not die when he hits the ground. This faith would be weak and of little value, and in fact no man would have this faith, because he would analyze what he knows about blunt force trauma, and his faith would be near worthless, if faith can be said to have any value at all.

This is not faith - faith is not a shot in the dark - a hope or wish for something. If you are a christian, you pray, seek guidance, hear His answer, and do what He says to do even if things don't 'appear' to be the way they are supposed to be because you are depending on God to make it happen as you move forward. He will too.

My faith in a round earth is worth more.


Your belief is based on facts, not faith - simply believing what you see - that isn't difficult, and doesn't require reason. It was faith for Christopher Columbus though...ever study about his faith? He was opposed at every turn, people told him he was crazy, and laughed at him.

Faith is built over time, and incorrect faith can destroy real faith. The example you gave of faith to not die if you drive off a mountain is not faith. But an everyday/non religious example of faith is to ask yourself...do I check the stability of a chair before I sit in it? Why do you have faith that it will hold up when you sit down? If you have had one break under you, how many times did it take you before you were able to sit back with with 'faith' that it would hold you up? The point of faith isn't us, it is the object of our faith - and Yahweh God is stable, able, and WILL do what He says He will do - every time, no failures ever, and He does expect a Christian to walk in that faith.
 

Into It

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This is not faith - faith is not a shot in the dark - a hope or wish for something. If you are a christian, you pray, seek guidance, hear His answer, and do what He says to do even if things don't 'appear' to be the way they are supposed to be because you are depending on God to make it happen as you move forward. He will too.

It was faith for Christopher Columbus though...ever study about his faith? He was opposed at every turn, people told him he was crazy, and laughed at him.

Faith is built over time, and incorrect faith can destroy real faith. The example you gave of faith to not die if you drive off a mountain is not faith. But an everyday/non religious example of faith is to ask yourself...do I check the stability of a chair before I sit in it? Why do you have faith that it will hold up when you sit down? If you have had one break under you, how many times did it take you before you were able to sit back with with 'faith' that it would hold you up? The point of faith isn't us, it is the object of our faith - and Yahweh God is stable, able, and WILL do what He says He will do - every time, no failures ever, and He does expect a Christian to walk in that faith.[/QUOTE]


Many people who are told that they are crazy, and are laughed at, are actually crazy. But we don't read about them. And I wouldn't let the fact that someone had faith in something 500 years ago, about a totally unrelated topic, and turned out to be right, be a reason to use faith. Faith is a kick to reason's mouth, and I declare war on it.

If anyone made up a religion, no matter how ludicrous and unreasonable, all they would have to say to patch up any inconsistency is that you should believe it "through faith." Believe it "through faith" because reason fails you.
 

Into It

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Maybe I'm just a little nutty because I have a "sense" of the personality of inanimate objects and concepts.

Give me a few ENFP's, please. The more, the merrier. By the way, Bluewing's INFJ profile talks about this "sense" of yours, you should read it if you haven't.


Yahweh God does not lie - ever.

Someone told me that about Allah once. One of you is wrong.
 

Into It

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I like Tolstoy's short book "The Kingdom of God is Within," where he describes Christianity as being misunderstood. I happen to agree with Nietzsche's view of Christianity, that it presupposes our weakness, and thus undercuts us, disempowers us. Interestingly, both of these men thought the other was an idiot.
 

Athenian200

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Give me a few ENFP's, please. The more, the merrier.

ENFP... hmm...

Hot Springs
iPods

That's all I can think of, actually.

By the way, Bluewing's INFJ profile talks about this "sense" of yours, you should read it if you haven't.

I used to be friends with him back when he wrote it, and we spoke a lot. It seems like he wrote it mostly about how he interpreted my behavior through the INFJ paradigm, along with a few other INFJs.
 

ThinkingAboutIt

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Someone told me that about Allah once. One of you is wrong.

This makes no sense at all - rational or common.
 

ADISCIPLE

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Someone told me that about Allah once. One of you is wrong.

This makes no sense at all - rational or common.

Although he was joking (I think). I have read the Qu'Ran as well and type description of the gods is exactly the same. So they believe in the same god.
 

Sentura

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Although he was joking (I think). I have read the Qu'Ran as well and type description of the gods is exactly the same. So they believe in the same god.

because reading the literal word is a better way than analyzing it in context.

i'm not saying it isn't the same god, but stating that it is certainly a bold claim.
 

ADISCIPLE

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because reading the literal word is a better way than analyzing it in context.

i'm not saying it isn't the same god, but stating that it is certainly a bold claim.

After have written that post I kind of want to take it back haha, it really wasn't what I meant. I meant to say that different people take different views on virtually the same God. There it is, that sounds nicer and less bold. :hug:
 

Salomé

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Into It: If a God such as the Christian God exists, is he deceptive because He doesn’t just tell us the answers and expects us to believe something less logical to be true rather than what we have discovered ourselves through science?

How do you know what he expects you to believe?
Is withholding information deceptive? Would you lecture your five yr old about quantum physics? And are you a liar if you don't?
Why do parents use fairy stories and similar devices to explain things/control behaviour in their children?
Do you think the human mind is capable of understanding everything, all at once?
Is there more pleasure in making an original discovery/deduction for yourself, or in reading a dry textbook?

You: I’m too tired and lazy to read all of this, can you make it shorter and easier.

Me: Yes I can, this is the best I can do, here you go.
Thanks!

Ahh gotcha. But I'm disappointed noone has found my summary humorous. I thought it was, and it took a long time so I should at least get some courtesy here damn.
*some courtesy* :D
 

Into It

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1How do you know what he expects you to believe?

2Is withholding information deceptive? 3Would you lecture your five yr old about quantum physics? 4And are you a liar if you don't?

5Do you think the human mind is capable of understanding everything, all at once?

1. I don't. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps He set up circimstances in such a way that He expects us not to believe. Perhaps he created us to damn us.

2.Yes.

3.No, but if I were to create him from dust, I would create him to be able to understand quantum physics. And even if I was determined to stultify his intelligence, I wouldn't punish him eternally for his opinion on that which I created him unable to understand.

4.No.

5.No, but the blame for this lies squarely on God. We could understand the complexities of the universe were we not created to be so stupid. His most profound work is inadequate.
 

Into It

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Into It: If a God such as the Christian God exists, is he deceptive because He doesn’t just tell us the answers and expects us to believe something less logical to be true rather than what we have discovered ourselves through science?

Sentura: If there is a God, he is far to intricate to understand as a human.

Athenian200: The story says rational human beings caused since, and that we should be ignorant and just believe.

Grayscale: Mankind has always wanted to be God.

Sunset5678: I believe in God because the people that don’t embarrass the people that do and the Bible says this will happen.

Kalach: This is a good argument because it is okay for people to lie to their loved ones to protect them.

Antireconciler: This is a good argument, I can’t dispute, someone else try.

Jennifer: It’s not illogical to promote faith and obedience.

Oom: Does God even exist?

Athenian200: I know I probably am wrong, I just can’t live by blind faith.

Fluffywolf: Humans are deceptive, not God.

Into It: Yes I agree that it is not evil to lie to protect someone or something, but why would God design it to be subject to harm?

Kalach: Lying to protect me is wrong, because I don’t just want the truth, I need the truth.

Into It: Kalach stopped reading what I posted because he believes that all ENFPs are ignorant. What I was saying was God would have the right to deceive someone if what he was hiding was evil in itself and would harm us little humans, but why would he set it up that way?

Kalach: All ENFPs will tell you what’s on their mind, because they all are ignorant! And I am supreme because I typed INTJ!!!

Into It: You were referring to my hidden feelings? This post has nothing to do with my personal feelings and therefore they were not hidden. I think you have week Introverted Feeling, you need to work on that.

1Kalach: You are just trying to bullshit everyone until they don’t care anymore. So what is God’s love like?

Lasting Pain: Whether I go to Heaven or Hell, I have question to ask God, and he will answer them.

Me: I think this is getting way off topic, so I’ll change it: Does Science support a creator since some action must begin to create a reaction and so on, infinitely. And is that what God really would be, Infinite? So what type was Jesus?

Into It: INTP. What you think?

Me: No, I think NJ.

You: I’m too tired and lazy to read all of this, can you make it shorter and easier.

Me: Yes I can, this is the best I can do, here you go.

Ha! I just went back and read this "summary" I had been hearing so much about. That's hilarious! My praise came a little late, but I seem to be the only one who actually thought it was funny, so it's better late than never.

1No, no. I was only trying to bullshit Kalach to wear her down. Most of the other stuff I posted was genuine.
 

Into It

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So, what was the love of God, again?

I missed this post.

Sorry for using the "flurry technique," but you're asking a question that no human could answer, so I just did my best, though I could have simply answered "No human can answer that."


My point was that I do not know what the love of God would look like. But I can point out the state of things and check whether or not they reflect a certain God.

Since I failed to figure it out, why don't you just go ahead and give me the answer now?
 
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