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  1. #61
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Jun 2008
    583 so/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    It was just information I provided. Nothing more.
    And I have just replied to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    1. No way. You just interpreted it that way. My point is that educated or ignorant, a person can be religious, spiritual, or atheist.

    3) Priests can have PhDs in science, math, and psychiatry, they aren't always in theology or philosophy. And it's not just priests - plenty of educated people believe in something...doctors, lawyers, teachers, professors...

    4) Nope. I just think that you assume others are ignorant. I also think that you are rigidly TJ, and there's nothing an FP can do about it. I don't want to do anything about it. You are who you are. We just do not understand each other, and I feel that your attitude in threads is frequently condecending, which is something I don't like unless it's lightened with humor.
    1. Ok, then I have missinterpreted it.

    3.Yes they can but just becuse they have a PhD that does not mean that they will spread the scientific truth.
    Another thing is that (intelligent) people could believe in God but that does not necessarily mean that they are right.

    4. You are right my approach is quite TJish.

    Also, if your assumption is true, then why did famous atheist Madeleine Murray O'Hare's son become a preacher?
    If you take a look at my post you quoted you will see that I was mentioning rebelious behaviours. He was probably bombared with atheism so much that this is the only possible outcome. Since people have the tendency to turn their back towards the tyranny.

  2. #62
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    583 so/sp


    Here why I said that you can damedge religion quite a bit without disproving God directly.
    I know that this big post but I can make it shorter and preserve the idea(s).

    Question about God is unconventional one so it requires unvonventional approach and answer.

    Here in the thing.
    When I take a look at people around me I ask myself one question.
    Where were those people in 12. century?
    The only reasonable answer I can come up with is "They were dead".
    But that raises a large amount of problems.
    Were we a soul for an eternity before we are born or God creates souls as he wish? What would mean that God on purpose creats souls that will end up in Hell and the alternative which is "Since ever - forever to Hell" is even more apsurd.
    If God loves us so much then why would he let something like this?

    There is one more interesting case

    You have parents that really love their child but in school that child falls under a bad influence and does some bad things one day.

    My question is: How will that parents enjoy in Heaven knowing that their child is not there with then a that he/she has a horrible time and it will have it for quite a while? You don't even need to have that bad influence since sometimes sh** just happen .

    Do you honestlly think that those parents will be able to enjoy that much in Haaven? Especialy because they will see other families that are complete all the time. Not to mention that they will meet all of their ancestors that made their way into the Heaven. What could be quite impractical.

    Because of this idea of Hell and eternal punishment looks like something quite ilogical. But if there is no punishment you are actually free to do whatever you want.
    Technically you could be send to Hell for a finite amount of time. But that would not be right since you can't die what means you will survive for sure and get the same benefits that good people got.
    Not to mention that God-Devil relations must be different if this is to become a relatity. What changes alot of things again.
    What would again lead into reality with out good and evil in the end.

    I also think that Heaven is probably same as Hell on the long run.


    For example: You like writting books but about what you will write in Heaven?

    If you start to write novels but there is a problem becuse there is no infinite number of novels you can write without staring to repeat with time.
    Pluse your mind has boundarys and its operates inside of them.

    But there is so big number of novels that can be written and it would be fun to do it once again. but with time it is unavoidable that you start to repeat yourself once again. What will you do then? Start another cycle?

    What will you do after 10 cycles ? 100? 10000? 1000000?
    Will you still write novels?

    What after 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 cycles ?

    I mean you can mix writting with other activity but problem is still out there.

    What will you do when that huge number that is writting up there will be the number of zeros after number 1 ?

    There is a fact that you forget things with time but you will always be conscious of the fact that you have done this so many times that you will even need thousands of years to even say the number how many time did you do something.
    (becuse it is that Big)

    All people that go to Heaven could ask God to delete their memory.
    But in that case people will figure out what happened quite fast and once again you have same problem.

    Since you can't die, the problem will be there forever. Always behind you and ready to destroy any fun that comes your way.
    Since you can't die you really can't experiance any real adventure becuse chance of survival is 100%.

    What will you do? Ask God to destroy you somehow?

    The only way to avoid this problem is that after death God turns you into something else. The point is that your human consciousness is no more so that you can grow and expand further.
    But that means that everything we like and worship in this life would not hold any real value. Also a lot of people believe exactly because they don't want to lose those things/values.

    But in this case you have another problem. If God can turn good person into something else why can't he do the same with a bad person?
    If he can change entire mental concept I don't see why he/she/it can't destroy tiny part that makes someone good or evil.

    So all logical conclusions lead to sitation that there is no good and evil or right and wrong in reality we live in. (Heaven and Hell included)
    I say this becuse all of us will get the benefits or no one will on the long run.
    Or there will be alot of injustice.

    If all of us don't get the same path that is not fair at all. Becuse you are not guilty for the fact that you have personality disorder or that your parents did not love you when you were a baby. If we add determinism in this then good a bad can't exist for sure in this reality and how you will live for an eternity is purely bases on luck.

    If we presume that there is no afterlife then the entire thing about God is losing its point since we will all die and stay that way in the end.

    Maybe God has a great master plan but we as humans have our logic and our way(s) and we get hurt if they are not met. No matter how much the master plan is good. Not to mention that Gods existence is pointless as well.

    What I am saying is that God could or could not exist but the real question is actually "Do we really need him and everything he has to offer on the long run ?"

  3. #63
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007


    Uhh... long debates. T_T

    1. The body dies.
    2. The soul flies away.
    3. The soul may experience internal hell.
    4. The soul can experience 'heaven'.
    5. Reincarnation

    As for proving all this. It's currently impossible to do so empirically.
    However it's a system that is not internally contradictory nor contradictory with external evidence.

    Problem of evil can be addressed. Whether you accept it or reject it is another matter.

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