What's your religion?

[Mole]

The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

What is my religion answers the question, where do I belong?

So where do I belong?

I belong to a civilization based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and Humanism. A civilization that exploded into the world with print and is now imploding into itself with the electronic media.

But almost unbeknownst to itself it is growing exponentially and quite soon it will reach its singularity or its omega point.

It has two competitors - Indian civilization and Chinese civilization. But we will reach our singularity before either of them.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about a singularity is that it will be a surprise.

It may well be the Restaurant at the End of the Universe or something we can't even imagine.

 

[Loxias]

Local Jesus :
Have you had any spiritual/transcendental experience in particular that led you towards Celtic heathenry? Is it in reverence of your ancestry? Or a choice of more aesthetic/romantic nature?
What made you adopt this particular path?

 

[matmos]

What is my religion answers the question, where do I belong?

So where do I belong?

I belong to a civilization based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and Humanism. A civilization that exploded into the world with print and is now imploding into itself with the electronic media.

But almost unbeknownst to itself it is growing exponentially and quite soon it will reach its singularity or its omega point.

It has two competitors - Indian civilization and Chinese civilization. But we will reach our singularity before either of them.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about a singularity is that it will be a surprise.

It may well be the Restaurant at the End of the Universe or something we can't even imagine.

Indeed. And by defining where we belong, we define where we do not belong. Often where we do not belong holds more significance than where we do.

I go to the Blue Goose because I do not like The Red Lion. Instead of a Superposition it boils down to good old opportunity cost. But I don't much like the Blue Goose...

 

[Mole]

The Others

Indeed. And by defining where we belong, we define where we do not belong. Often where we do not belong holds more significance than where we do.

I go to the Blue Goose because I do not like The Red Lion. Instead of a Superposition it boils down to good old opportunity cost. But I don't much like the Blue Goose...

Yes, in the global village it is becoming vital to know which etribe you belong to.

So I don't belong to the Indian or the Chinese, so that only leaves the Western.

It is important to know not only where you stand but how you stand. In that way we can keep our balance.

We are faced here everyday with the Chinese and Indian civilizations and they are faced with us. Quite soon China will be our biggest trading partner with India following close behind. And our relationships with them will be rocky and inevitable.

So it is vital we know who we are and who they are.

And as you say, to us they are the other, and to them we are the other.

 

[Loxias]

The world is not only the Western, Indian and Chinese civilisations.
Which in turn aren't uniform blocks.

 

[Mole]

The world is not only the Western, Indian and Chinese civilisations.

Well, let's look at the candidates.

Perhaps Russia, but Russia is based on Russian Orthodox Christianity, so Russia is part of the West.

Perhaps Islam, but Islam is one of the three Abrahamic faiths and so surprisingly for everyone, Islam is part of the West.

Africa perhaps, but Africa has been colonized by the West and also is part of the West.

So that only leaves three civilizations extant - the Indian civilization, the Chinese civilization and the Western civilization.

 

[KDude]

I think I can identify a little bit with the "tribes" Victor mentioned (Greek/Humanistic/Judaic/Christian), as well as the Indian and Chinese cultures (via family from "Indochina"/SE Asia). I wouldn't say I'm "global" though, since I know next to nothing about African/Hispanic/Aboriginal/and many specific European cultures, and they're all important. But I do feel I've gotten to experience life without a big East/West divide.

How that all transfers to religious beliefs, I don't know. I think I've mentioned before that I like Taoism. Which is just my way of saying I don't believe in much of anything

 

[Loxias]

Why do you need to regroup things this way? Why do you need to oversimplify to such meaningless entities when there are plenty of essential differences on a much narrower level to take into account?
To the level at which you are, it would actually be very easy to unite the remaining blocks. Chinese and Indian civilisations are tied by the influence of Buddhism (and Hinduism), Indian civilisation has had considerable islamic influence, Chinese civilisation has gone through thorough contact with Western ideas and ways(think of the cultural revolution in China, the extensive westernisation of Japan...).

And if you stick to your scheme. Is Indonesia culturally Western or Indian?

 

[Mole]

I think I can identify a little bit with the "tribes" Victor mentioned (Greek/Humanistic/Judaic/Christian), as well as the Indian and Chinese cultures (via family from "Indochina"/SE Asia). I wouldn't say I'm "global" though, since I know next to nothing about African/Hispanic/Aboriginal/and many specific European cultures, and they're all important. But I do feel I've gotten to experience life without a big East/West divide.

How that all transfers to religious beliefs, I don't know. I think I've mentioned before that I like Taoism. Which is just my way of saying I don't believe in much of anything

Unless we speak Hindi, Mandarin and English, we can't say we are multicultural.

 

[Mole]

Is Indonesia culturally Western or Indian?

It's called Indonesia (Indo-nesia) because it is part of Indian civilization.

 

[KDude]

Unless we speak Hindi, Mandarin and English, we can't say we are multicultural.

I am definitely multicultural.

As for language, I can't speak Hindi and Mandarin. I can speak a little Thai, and I guess if I were to stretch it, I would say it's script is Hindi influenced.

Also, I can cuss a little in Japanese. I can flip people off in Korean too


.... Seriously though, Asia is not as simple as languages. If anything, most Asians, I would say, share a common bond through Confucianism. Just about every culture in East and SE Asia is touched by it. If you were to associate it all with something, it'd be that.

 

[Mole]

Why do you need to oversimplify to such meaningless entities

If you were living in Australia at the moment, you would not think they were meaningless entities.

For both Western and Indian civilizations are taking to each other through the Indian press and the Australian press.

And we are starting to realise how important India will be to us.

In fact India is the prize of South Asia and Afghanistan is the booby prize.

And the USA and her allies are the boobies.

 

[Loxias]

It's called Indonesia (Indo-nesia) because it is part of Indian civilization.

Have you been to Indonesia?
Your choice is not that evident, Indonesia is in its great majority muslim, it has also been colonised by the Netherlands for an extended period of time, and has also had Chinese influences.
Want to try Malaysia then?

I am sorry to sound harsh, but you don't appear as someone who is well-traveled, or that has had any experience with different culture beyond theorical knowledge from books or the internet.
The differences of cultures within your blocks can be in some cases as great or greater than those between countries of different blocks.

In my opinion, the main cultural differences in the globalised world we live in is more a question of a connectedness and modernisation, which transcends traditional ethnic/cultural divisons.
There is an opposition between the traditional cultures and the modernised/globalised, the latter having started mostly in the west and making up an increasing portion of the cultures on earth.
My experience is that I have more in common with urban youth in Southeast Asia, than I have with remote rural communities within Europe.

This is not a race towards singularity as you put it up, every country is more or less slowly seeing its population integrate in the globalised culture, which as a whole is what is likely to attain singularity.

Now, my personal take on this globalisation is that of skepticism, as I tend to long for traditional values (that many unrelated societies had in common) that are being lost to the materialism and individual consumerism of the globalised modern culture I am a part of.

 

[Loxias]

If you were living in Australia at the moment, you would not think they were meaningless entities.

I am, as a matter of fact, living in Australia at the moment. But I have lived in other countries too, and am not Australian. This diversity of experiences both within and outside (Malaysia during 5 years) of the Western sphere has led me to my conclusions and disagreement with your ideas.

For both Western and Indian civilizations are taking to each other through the Indian press and the Australian press.

This is not a question of civilisations. It's a question of racist bogans vs. more recent immigrants (something that happened previously with other people too, think about "Western Lebanese" vs. Bogans not that long ago), and a question of powerful country (India) vs. less powerful country (Australia).
There is no civilisational tension here. The people that got bashed were very westernised as they were studying or living in Australia, in the English language, in urban modern areas.

And we are starting to realise how important India will be to us.

In fact India is the prize of South Asia and Afghanistan is the booby prize.

And the USA and her allies are the boobies.

Your metaphores are obscure.

 

[KDude]

^I appreciate some of the consumerism and materialism myself.. although I understand why you'd frown upon it. It has a way of getting out of control and swallowing things up. But I think it has it's place too. In the end, I don't believe "tradition" will be lost. Any given culture can adopt it and make it's own, shaping it with tradition. Take Korea or Japan, for example.. They are still distinctly "Korean" or "Japanese" while at the same time (and for quite awhile now) completely immersed in materialism and "pop culture" type of tendencies (err... whatever that means.. not phrasing that right. I'm tired atm. Hope you get the gist of what I'm saying).

Basically, I don't think the future is going to be like that movie Idiocracy or anything. At least, I hope not.

 

[Mole]

This diversity of experiences both within and outside (Malaysia during 5 years) of the Western sphere has led me to my conclusions and disagreement with your ideas.

I don't want to argue with you, for arguing is a psychological defence mechanism.

I would prefer to discover what you are defending against. And perhaps we could find out if, rather than disagreeing with my ideas, you expressed your own.

 

[Loxias]

^I appreciate some of the consumerism and materialism myself.. although I understand why you'd frown upon it. It has a way of getting out of control and swallowing things up. But I think it has it's place too. In the end, I don't believe "tradition" will be lost. Any given culture can adopt it and make it's own, shaping it with tradition. Take Japan, for example.. They are still distinctly "Japanese" while at the same time (and for quite awhile now) completely immersed in materialism.

Basically, I don't think the future is going to be like that movie Idiocracy or anything. At least, I hope not.

When I look at my country (France), I can hardly see what traditional remains. We have totally reconstructed ourselves since the revolution with modernist objectives in mind, and there is hardly anything that can be called French culture left beyond state institutions and touristic paraphernalia.

The case of Japan is complex, and if we could have asked Tanizaki or Mishima when they were still around they would have already told us that they thought the traditional Japan was lost. And I agree that it mostly is.
There is a distinct Japanese modern culture, but it is hardly traditional anymore. I greatly admire their ability to give to their modernity this level of individuality, but in the end, those special values that made up the traditional world (be it in Japan or many other places) have been mostly replaced by the values of modernity.

I haven't seen that movie, I will have to check it out.

 

[Loxias]

I don't want to argue with you, for arguing is a psychological defence mechanism.

I am willing to open up to your ideas, but for that you have to rebuke mine thoroughly first. I don't claim to own any truth, but I think that my beliefs are the best I hae encountered so far. The process of dialectic argument is what allows me to update my views. The fact that you don't want to play could make me believe that you are unsure about your views and would actually not argue as a defence mechanism.

I would prefer to discover what you are defending against. And perhaps we could find out if, rather than disagreeing with my ideas, you expressed your own.

I am not defending against anything, I have stated my ideas clear, they are not defined by what they are not, they are defined by what they are, and they are here. You can have all the fun questioning them, destroying them. I will end up ideologically more mature out of it, and you will have the pleasure of knowing that you were right if I admit that you convinced me.

 

[KDude]

When I look at my country (France), I can hardly see what traditional remains. We have totally reconstructed ourselves since the revolution with modernist objectives in mind, and there is hardly anything that can be called French culture left beyond state institutions and touristic paraphernalia.

The case of Japan is complex, and if we could have asked Tanizaki or Mishima when they were still around they would have already told us that they thought the traditional Japan was lost. And I agree that it mostly is.
There is a distinct Japanese modern culture, but it is hardly traditional anymore. I greatly admire their ability to give to their modernity this level of individuality, but in the end, those special values that made up the traditional world (be it in Japan or many other places) have been mostly replaced by the values of modernity.

I haven't seen that movie, I will have to check it out.

Oh god, Idiocracy is... depressing actually. Funny, but depressing. Prepare yourself


You make good points. I will point though that some of Japan's traditions, just like some Western traditions, are archaic. It's probably for the better that they've been slowly weeded out. "Out with the old, in with the new." And hopefully, you can achieve the new at least in a unique way. If you can do that, you still have the mark of tradition somewhat.

On the flipside, I read an article the other day that was pointing out that many Tokyo youths didn't go to the countryside much, didn't know about this or that landmark, or shrine.. Kind of sad. These are things that even tourists would love to see.

 

[Loxias]

Oh god, Idiocracy is... depressing actually. Funny, but depressing. Prepare yourself


You make good points. On the flipside, some of Japan's traditions, just like some Western traditions, are archaic. It's probably for the better that they've been slowly weeded out. "Out with the old, in with the new." And hopefully, you can achieve the new at least in a unique way. If you can do it, you still have the mark of tradition somewhat.

On the flipside, I read an article the other day that was pointing out that many Tokyo youths didn't go to the countryside much, didn't know about this or that landmark, or shrine.. Kind of sad. These are things that even tourists would love to see.

I guess my personal romantic and metaphysical attachment to the archaic shouldn't cloud my judgement too much. If the general interest of people according to the people is taken into account, then, it's most likely that the "out with the old, in with the new" approach was, as everything, not better, nor worse, just different.
It is very possible that whatever the changes, the general equation will produce the same amount of unhappiness or happiness. Those who win the deal are those who are able to love modernity and be fulfilled with it.

I need to get my priorities straight and stop the pining over some kind of lost past. But I just can't.