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  2. #832
    Ginkgo
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    It says that Aquinas criticized this argument.

    Wittgenstein summed it up nicely - "God's essence is said to guarantee his existence - what this really means is that here what is at issue is not the existence of something."

  3. #833
    Kultainen Kuningas Devil Flamingo's Avatar
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    I don't have a religion. I don't really believe in anything much; whether God exists or not doesn't concern me, and I don't believe anything of importance happens after death, so I don't really care about being saved or reaching enlightenment. So I'm best described as agnostic, although I'm somewhat spiritual and superstitious as well, XD, but that doesn't count as being religious.

    So yeah. :546:
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    metsän ukko halliparta, metsän kultainen kuningas,
    ava nyt aittasi avara, luinen lukko lonkahuta!

  4. #834
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    It says that Aquinas criticized this argument.

    Wittgenstein summed it up nicely - "God's essence is said to guarantee his existence - what this really means is that here what is at issue is not the existence of something."
    Its one of my goals in life to understand Wittgenstein, I cant believe that his book became a cornerstone in athiestic thinking when he's a spiritualist and told them they understood none of it.

    The idea that he drafted it up while fighitng in the trenches and contemplated becoming a monk while touring europe as a philosopher just seems kinda cool, I love the fact he got into a poker fight with Popper too, that rocks.

  5. #835
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I've been reading The Shorter Summa, which is an abbreviated version of the Summa Theologica (originally around 4000 pages, rivaling the Bible in length and substance) by Thomas Aquinas, and I'm enjoying the philosophical edge that Thomas uses. It's refreshing in comparison to the noisy rhetoric that contemporary thought's brimming with, though it requires a much more astute level of understanding logic. I think I'll probably have to reread it meticulously to have a fuller understanding of it all.

    Aquinas defines God, in a looser sense, as the greatest thing a person can think about. As such, God is self evident. Then, a rebuttal makes a transition from the "greatest thing" a person can think about to "infinite goodness". However, if a thing is infinitely good, then it would expunge all things bad. Clearly, there is the problem of evil.

    Then another rebuttal takes place that goes on about the Uncaused Cause, which is cogent as far as I can tell.

    I'm caught up on whether the greatest thing a person can think about is infinitely good. I think this presumes that thought itself is infinite. That's a toughy.

    In any case, I should probably keep reading.
    I'm curious how you can define god in such a way. It's basically like responding to a question with, "My answer is whatever ends up being the right answer to this question". What purpose does such a statement serve? There is no way in which to use the statement to construct anything else. There is no way to say anything about such answer, let alone that it is infinitely good.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
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  6. #836
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Atheist Hindu of the Non-Dualist School.
    Extraverted - 25 Introverted - 75
    Sensing - 0 Intuition - 100
    Thinking - 63 Feeling - 37
    Judging - 63 Perceiving - 37
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    It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.

  7. #837
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Beat, Ivy, open your eyes and look around.
    I've looked and looked and I still fail to see photos of God anywhere. Remember that this is how you answered Beat's point about knowing Japan exists because of falsifiable evidence- I've never been to Japan, but physical, tangible evidence that it's really there is just a plane ticket away. That kind of evidence for God's existence simply does not exist. No plane ticket is going to provide proof of God's existence. That is what faith is for.

    "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Isn't it interesting that this passage from Hebrews doesn't say "Faith is the measuring of the evidence for things that are clearly seen around us everywhere"? I'm a Christian, but not because there's proof of God's existence. If there were, what good would faith be? Faith is unfalsifiable. Doesn't make it wrong or bad, IMO- just another realm. But at least recognize what it is, and what it is not.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #838
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I've looked and looked and I still fail to see photos of God anywhere.
    Some would say, just look in the mirror. Thou art God; thou art Goddess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Isn't it interesting that this passage from Hebrews doesn't say "Faith is the measuring of the evidence for things that are clearly seen around us everywhere"? I'm a Christian, but not because there's proof of God's existence. If there were, what good would faith be? Faith is unfalsifiable. Doesn't make it wrong or bad, IMO- just another realm. But at least recognize what it is, and what it is not.
    Amen. I am not a Christian, but am religious in my own way, and feel the same about faith.

  9. #839
    Senior Member uberrogo's Avatar
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    American Orthodox
    If Men's Health magazine was true, you would never need to buy more than one issue.

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    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    God has never helped me in being happier either.

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