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  1. #381
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fair enough. I know a fair number of people who call themselves Christians, however, that take most of the Bible (in some cases even Christ's physical existence itself) as a metaphor for greater wisdom. In other words, they don't actually believe that Jesus Christ had supernatural powers or rose from the dead or still exists literally outside the minds of followers.

    Would these people be Christians?

    Honestly, I'm not trying to needle you about this; I'm just genuinely curious as to what is required in order to claim Christianity. The more different, conflicting opinions I hear on this, the more I start to think the term "Christian" is meaningless because it's anything anyone wants it to be.
    It does depend on who you ask. The most basic requirement is a confession of faith. As in, for example, the Apostle's Creed.

    Personally, I do believe that most of the Bible is a metaphor for greater wisdom; however, I asked to be baptized at age 7 and I have been studying for decades. I think a foundation in text and interaction with other believers in serious inquiry is vital (i.e., Sunday school). I think once you have done some real work, if you can depart from certain widely-held beliefs, whatever they may be, in your particular denomination, that is righteous. I think you should know what you're doing, though, and that does not mean willy-nilly on the basis of nothing up and deciding that whatever you feel like is how it should be.

    That is the truth for me. Your truth may be entirely different and whatever it is, I respect it as Holy Spirit instructing you as is appropriate for who you are where you are.

  2. #382
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fair enough. I know a fair number of people who call themselves Christians, however, that take most of the Bible (in some cases even Christ's physical existence itself) as a metaphor for greater wisdom. In other words, they don't actually believe that Jesus Christ had supernatural powers or rose from the dead or still exists literally outside the minds of followers.

    Would these people be Christians?

    Honestly, I'm not trying to needle you about this; I'm just genuinely curious as to what is required in order to claim Christianity. The more different, conflicting opinions I hear on this, the more I start to think the term "Christian" is meaningless because it's anything anyone wants it to be.
    It is only quite recently in history that 'belief' has become the touchstone of Christianity.

    For most of the life of Christianity it was the sacraments that were the mark of a Christian.

    'Belief' has now become a fetish.

    But as we move further into the Noosphere, we will leave this fetish behind and rediscover the sacraments.

  3. #383
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    For many protestants baptism isn't so much a requirement to being Christian. It's the belief that Christ is the Son of God and that He conquered sin. Catholics and others profess that baptism is something that begins a regeneration process. I don't think that is the case. I think baptism is a declaration of faith. It's not necessary for being a Christian.

    The traditional sacraments have been thought to be necessary since before the reformation. The reformation though was really an advancement of thought. It helped to recenter the focus from the physical to the spiritual. In the Bible the sacraments weren't required the idea is that traditional sacraments were apart of the old law. Christ came to establish the new. So, the only condition to salvation was belief. Christ Himself stated this many times throughout the new testament. Humans tried to twist Christianity for their own means, which is why you could purchase a "voucher" for your sins for some time before the reformation. It was powered by greed and not faith.

    Now, specifically answering your questions. The term "Christian" is meaningless to people you use it without understanding it. Individuals use it flippantly all the time. Some people don't even know what a Christian is anymore. A very sad thing if you ask me. I don't think however that it would be logical to call yourself a Christian just because you agree with some of Christs teachings. You reject some of his other teachings just by not believing that He is supernatural. So, can you really call yourself a "Christian" if you don't agree with the items that All of His teachings were based off of? He was able to speak with such authority because of those things that are supernatural.

    Look at Islam. People of that faith profess that Christ was a great and wise teacher, yet they refuse to label them selves as Christians. So, evidently the term "Christian" means something to them. It's more than just professing agreement with some of His statements. It's more than just doing what is right. I think the majority of the people who call them selves Christians and actually profess to have faith would say it takes a belief in who Christ was and what He came to do.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  4. #384
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It is only quite recently in history that 'belief' has become the touchstone of Christianity.

    For most of the life of Christianity it was the sacraments that were the mark of a Christian.

    'Belief' has now become a fetish.

    But as we move further into the Noosphere, we will leave this fetish behind and rediscover the sacraments.
    Victor, that's not true. cf John 3:16.

    Sacraments are fetishistic, if anything, IMO.

  5. #385
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    Ohhh. We are referencing passages now. I'll get my NASB. lol
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  6. #386
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Oh, good! Your turn! Before I start in on the epistle to the Romans ...

    I'ma go have a Coke and get outta the pulpit.

  7. #387
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Seriously. Coke is it, people. *crosses self in presence of Pepsi drinkers*
    PEPSI IS NECTAR FROM HEAVEN
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

    The SP Spazz Youtube Channel

  8. #388
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    Tag team?

    Let's see.

    Ephesians 2:8a
    For by grace you have been saved through faith...

    Galatians 3:26
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    John 3:18a
    He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Romans 10:9
    that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    Genesis 14:6
    [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    John 3:36a
    He who believes in the Son has eternal life...

    John 5:24
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    John 6:40a
    "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life...

    John 6:47
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

    John 11:25-26
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

    Romans 1:16a
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...

    Romans 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    1st John 5:1a
    Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...

    John 20:31
    but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


    These are just a few of the many verses that center the Christian faith on belief. Catholics who believe in a faith coupled with works agree with the fact that you are saved by your belief. They just sorta add to it [no offense intended]. If you notice I have one from Genesis, before Christ was even on the earth. That's how deeply rooted the Christian faith is in belief..

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Oh, good! Your turn! Before I start in on the epistle to the Romans ...
    You can go for the verses from Romans now if you want.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  9. #389
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    PEPSI IS NECTAR FROM HEAVEN
    Pepsi is milk from the teat of the Whore of Babylon. Diet Coke is the devil's piss.

  10. #390
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I am currently a non-practicing virgin.

    (Ten ponies to the person who can recall what movie that line is from)
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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