Why are atheists thought ill of?

[ptgatsby]

Unkind but true.

And they have a lot to be obnoxious about such the report of Ireland's Commission into Child Abuse.

The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution.

The funny thing is that I don't see this as a particularly'bad' thing for religion... not as a belief system. It's an organization issue - give power, especially moral power, to a body politic and it tends to follow its baser nature.

What I do find frustrating is the "my religion/church could never be like...", despite so many religions being like that. Course, you can replace that with government/etc, but the central point is that it isn't special. The behavior tends to be very much the same.

 

[Mole]

The abuse scandal is a disastrous black spot on my church.

Rather than a black spot, it is an X-ray.

We are told the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we are commanded to love this same God. This is precisely what a child sexual abuser demands of his victims - he demand his victims both fear and love him.

And God, of course, has absolute power. And the perfect expression of absolute power is to rape many children over many years and have the Hierarchy of the Church protect you from the law, and facilitate your crimes in the next parish.

But why should we be surprised?

After all, the Father was offended by us and in order to forgive us He tortured his Son to death on the Cross.

The Father is the perfect role model for absolute power and the abuse of a child in his care.

 

[Mole]

The funny thing is that I don't see this as a particularly'bad' thing for religion... not as a belief system. It's an organization issue - give power, especially moral power, to a body politic and it tends to follow its baser nature.

What I do find frustrating is the "my religion/church could never be like...", despite so many religions being like that. Course, you can replace that with government/etc, but the central point is that it isn't special. The behavior tends to be very much the same.

In 1833 the House of Commons abolished the institution of slavery for the first time in human history.

And in the 20th Century women gained their emancipation in the West.

And in the last 15 years the crime of child rape has prosecuted in our Criminal Courts in the West.

And it is sobering to remember that in large swarths of the world, women have not gained their emancipation.

And in third world countries, child rape is still not prosecuted in the Criminal Courts.

To get this in historical perspective it might be an idea to read, "Foundations of Psychohistory", by Lloyd Demause.

Should you have the moral fortitude, you can read it on the screen in front of you by clicking on -

Contents - FOUNDATIONS OF PSYCHOHISTORY

 

[Take Five]

Rather than a black spot, it is an X-ray.

We are told the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we are commanded to love this same God. This is precisely what a child sexual abuser demands of his victims - he demand his victims both fear and love him.

And God, of course, has absolute power. And the perfect expression of absolute power is to rape many children over many years and have the Hierarchy of the Church protect you from the law, and facilitate your crimes in the next parish.

But why should we be surprised?

After all, the Father was offended by us and in order to forgive us He tortured his Son to death on the Cross.

The Father is the perfect role model for absolute power and the abuse of a child in his care.

The resulting cynicism and lack of trust that more people now have in the church is somehing that will take a long time to change. I think earning back the previous reputation of the church will be its biggest challenge for the coming decades.

 

[ptgatsby]

...

None of which I terribly disagree with, but I'm not sure what your point is, exactly. The balance of history shows that humans are progressing, and that those that hold it back at one moment are encouraging it in the next.

 

[Mole]

The resulting cynicism and lack of trust that more people now have in the church is somehing that will take a long time to change. I think earning back the previous reputation of the church will be its biggest challenge for the coming decades.

On the contrary, the biggest challenge for the Church is to stop raping children in the Philippines and South America and bring the child rapists before the Criminal Courts.

And an even bigger challenge is to bring the Bishops, the Arch-Bishops and Cardinals before the Criminal Courts. But so far not even one Bishop has had his day in Court.

But most of all is for the Pope to give up his diplomatic immunity.

The Pope as you know is not only the Head of the Church but he has the highest temporal status. He is also Head of State.

And as Head of State he is immune from prosecution.

 

[Lasting_Pain]

On the contrary, the biggest challenge for the Church is to stop raping children in the Philippines and South America and bring the child rapists before the Criminal Courts.

And an even bigger challenge is to bring the Bishops, the Arch-Bishops and Cardinals before the Criminal Courts. But so far not even one Bishop has had his day in Court.

But most of all is for the Pope to give up his diplomatic immunity.

The Pope as you know is not only the Head of the Church but he has the highest temporal status. He is also Head of State.

And as Head of State he is immune from prosecution.

If I had to choose which religion not to join it would be the Catholics. They worship too many people. God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, The Pope, and the list goes on.

 

[Take Five]

If I had to choose which religion not to join it would be the Catholics. They worship too many people. God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, The Pope, and the list goes on.

That's incorrect. First, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing and the only thing to be worshipped. The Pope is not worshipped, nor is he prayed to. The rest of the "list," i.e. saints like Mary, are also not worshipped. The belief is that saints can intercede on one's behalf, not that they are to receive worship.

 

[Blackmail!]

By the way, Take Five, did you know that it was the Calvinists that invented the word "tolerance" (especially when dealing with laws)? This concept was virtually unknown amongst Catholics.

Don't you find this interesting?

 

[Bubbles]

By the way, Take Five, did you know that it was the Calvinists that invented the word "tolerance" (especially when dealing with laws)? This concept was virtually unknown amongst Catholics.

Don't you find this interesting?

That's like hating Germans because of Hitler. Not all Catholics are intolerant. Just enough to annoy the majority who aren't. And of course there were bad times in the past, but isn't it fair to say the Catholics currently in existence did not promote the Spanish Inquisition, nor the Crusades?

Besides. The OP is about atheism.

 

[Take Five]

That's like hating Germans because of Hitler. Not all Catholics are intolerant. Just enough to annoy the majority who aren't. And of course there were bad times in the past, but isn't it fair to say the Catholics currently in existence did not promote the Spanish Inquisition, nor the Crusades?

Besides. The OP is about atheism.

Absolutely right.

And the French calvinists, the Huguenots, committed as equally terrible persecutions against the Catholics in some regions of France as the Catholics did against others.

The philosophy that a state needs to be religiously uniform in order to stable, rather than the actual religious doctrine, I believe would be the more accurate source of strife that occurred. Separation of Church and State, largely solved this problem, and no single religion can take credit or blame for this.

 

[Lasting_Pain]

That's incorrect. First, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing and the only thing to be worshipped. The Pope is not worshipped, nor is he prayed to. The rest of the "list," i.e. saints like Mary, are also not worshipped. The belief is that saints can intercede on one's behalf, not that they are to receive worship.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same thing but they are separate entities that require worshiping. Even states that in the bible. Victor even stated that the Pope is above prosecution and the law. I like Catholics as people but their religion is really screwed up.

 

[Into It]

Those who think ill of Atheists are those who subscribe to a predetermined system of values. So an Atheist should not be saddened that they think ill of him, because it is not they who are thinking. They are a mirror at their most individualistic; their feelings were decided for them before they were even born.

Others, who do not subscribe to set value systems, tend not to think so ill of Atheists, so I don't know if this is really that big of a problem.

I personally believe that Atheists deserve to be thought of as ignorant to some degree, and guilty of a similar crime as those who regularly decry them. Atheism is a proclamation that one knows what cannot be known. This is arrogant and ignorant. To me, as a skeptic, the universe appears to show little hard evidence for having a creator. But in my humility I cannot allow myself to be anything other than Agnostic; I am no charlatan; I will not proclaim knowledge of that which is so unfathomably beyond any reasonable conclusion that I could draw from the little that can be sensed.

 

[Costrin]

I personally believe that Atheists deserve to be thought of as ignorant to some degree, and guilty of a similar crime as those who regularly decry them. Atheism is a proclamation that one knows what cannot be known. This is arrogant and ignorant. To me, as a skeptic, the universe appears to show little hard evidence for having a creator. But in my humility I cannot allow myself to be anything other than Agnostic; I am no charlatan; I will not proclaim knowledge of that which is so unfathomably beyond any reasonable conclusion that I could draw from the little that can be sensed.

Well I dunno about Atheism, but atheism isn't like that.

 

[Take Five]

God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same thing but they are separate entities that require worshiping. Even states that in the bible. Victor even stated that the Pope is above prosecution and the law. I like Catholics as people but their religion is really screwed up.

You're still mixed up a little. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three distinct Persons of God, all of which = God. And God is the only being that Catholics worship, though we may experience God through any and all of the three Persons. I honestly don't know where the bit about the Pope comes from, but even were Victor's claim true, it's hardly grounds to dismiss the Church.

 

[FC3S]

"Do you believe in God?"

"Yep."

"Do you believe in my god?"

"No."

"You're going to hell."

 

[Into It]

Well I dunno about Atheism, but atheism isn't like that.

Hmm, fair enough I guess...if atheism means you don't believe it as ardently. In that case, I would be an atheist as well. But whether or not we regard it as a 'Religion' or a simple belief, an axe must be hurled at any "conclusion" based on data that is nowhere to be found, or facts which are not facts. When one calls himself "atheist," this is instead of "agnostic," or "christian" or "buddhist." It is a religious identity. In response to the question, "Are you Christian?" one commonly answers "No, I am atheist." The only atheist I could respect (in this regard) is one who is not a "true" atheist, but is actually an agnostic person who feels 99.99% sure that there is no God.

One may then argue that all people are really agnostic then, because no one is sure 100%, and so all religions are obselete in this respect. Fine with me. What my true crusade is against is 100% belief, and so I retract statements that are against atheism only, since atheism is more sensible than many alternatives. It is true that I group atheism in with all religions in an idealistic, hypothetical manner, that is, that any belief in which much time and energy are invested, and placed on a pedestal of religious importance, which does not have very solid ground is regrettable. But in its actual practice, most atheists are flexible, if only a little, and are not arrogant or ignorant to me.

 

[Into It]

"Do you believe in God?"

"Yep."

"Do you believe in my god?"

"No."

"You're going to hell."

My God's Hell or your God's Hell?

 

[FC3S]

My God's Hell or your God's Hell?

I'm agnostic/nihilist

 

[Costrin]

Hmm, fair enough I guess...if atheism means you don't believe it as ardently. In that case, I would be an atheist as well. But whether or not we regard it as a 'Religion' or a simple belief, an axe must be hurled at any "conclusion" based on data that is nowhere to be found, or facts which are not facts. When one calls himself "atheist," this is instead of "agnostic," or "christian" or "buddhist." It is a religious identity. In response to the question, "Are you Christian?" one commonly answers "No, I am atheist." The only atheist I could respect (in this regard) is one who is not a "true" atheist, but is actually an agnostic person who feels 99.99% sure that there is no God.

One may then argue that all people are really agnostic then, because no one is sure 100%, and so all religions are obselete in this respect. Fine with me. What my true crusade is against is 100% belief, and so I retract statements that are against atheism only, since atheism is more sensible than many alternatives. It is true that I group atheism in with all religions in an idealistic, hypothetical manner, that is, that any belief in which much time and energy are invested, and placed on a pedestal of religious importance, which does not have very solid ground is regrettable. But in its actual practice, most atheists are flexible, if only a little, and are not arrogant or ignorant to me.

Basically your definition of atheism is wrong. I've actually posted about that before in this thread.