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Religion... why?

O

Oberon

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This is true from a logical point of view. But it is a complete failure to explain why no civilization is not based on a religion.

It also fails to explain why my brilliant son can't remember where he left his shoes, but then again that wasn't its purpose to begin with. :D
 
O

Oberon

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Atheism was the official state belief in the former Soviet Union. That is a society that did not work out so well.

I would venture a guess that the Communist Party deliberately tried to substitute communist philosophy in place of religion, at least among the professional class. So while atheism may have been the official state belief, it's not exactly true to call the Soviet state areligious.
 

Totenkindly

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It also fails to explain why my brilliant son can't remember where he left his shoes, but then again that wasn't its purpose to begin with. :D

He can't find his shoes, silly, because he doesn't look in the last place he left them. ;)

That'll be 5 cents. Next question, please!

I would venture a guess that the Communist Party deliberately tried to substitute communist philosophy in place of religion, at least among the professional class. So while atheism may have been the official state belief, it's not exactly true to call the Soviet state areligious.

nice clarification.

Although that leads me to ask: What sort of philosophy / way of life would be an alternative to religion, without simply acting as one in religion's place?
 

Virtual ghost

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Although that leads me to ask: What sort of philosophy / way of life would be an alternative to religion, without simply acting as one in religion's place?

I think that the closest point in wich humanity come to ateistic society is European union. For the first time in history you have a place where you have huge number of atheist and no one is directly forcing them to be atheists.
They will even defend their atheism if that is what it takes.
 

IlyaK1986

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Why no civilization was atheist: because most civilizations were founded when most of the people believed in an invisible man, and their kids did because the adults in their community made them to do so, and that process repeated itself.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I would venture a guess that the Communist Party deliberately tried to substitute communist philosophy in place of religion, at least among the professional class. So while atheism may have been the official state belief, it's not exactly true to call the Soviet state areligious.

Yes but we have an analog to that in the US. Soviets were very nationalistic and idealize communism. Americans are very nationalistic and idealize democracy. Political ideals may bare some resemblence to religion, but they really aren't the same thing. So far what we know of atheistic societies is that they don't work very well, although we do only have a small sample to draw from.
 

Mole

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Atheism was the official state belief in the former Soviet Union. That is a society that did not work out so well.

We just have a simple misunderstanding.

A society is not a civilization.

For instance, Russian society, and for a while Soviet Society, is part of Western Civilization.

And the religion of Western Civilization is Christianity, just as the religion of Mother Russia is Russian Orthodox Christianity.

It is merely sleight of hand to describe Mother Russia as atheist. And just a propaganda argument put up by theists.

The point is that the argument between theists and atheists is a logical trap.

And when you are in trap the only important thing is to get out.
 

Mole

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I think that the closest point in wich humanity come to ateistic society is European union. For the first time in history you have a place where you have huge number of atheist and no one is directly forcing them to be atheists.
They will even defend their atheism if that is what it takes.

How odd.

Western Civilization takes its very name from, "Western Europe".

And the religion of Western Civilization is Christianity.

And the very birthplace of Christianity is Western Europe.

To say that Western Europe is atheist is merely the special pleading of atheists. It is the propaganda of atheists.
 

Mole

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And curioser and curioser.

Both theists and atheists defend their positions even though both will admit they can prove nothing.

And odder and odder, even though they can't establish their positions, they identify with them.

So they defend them in the same way you defend you identity whether it is American or Islamic, whether you are straight or gay or even whether you like Rock or Classical.

We are completely reluctant to dissociate from our identity because that leaves us disorientated and vulnerable.

So we cling to theism or atheism for safety.

In exactly the same way we cling to MBTI even though is has the same truth value as astrology.

And interestingly MBTI is defended in exactly the same way as theists and atheists defend their identity.
 

Nocapszy

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That's more curiously, and more curiously Victor.

MBTI is true.

Now I've corrected you, it's your turn to correct me.
 

Mole

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That's more curiously, and more curiously Victor.

Now I've corrected you, it's your turn to correct me.

When I wrote, "curioser and curioser", it looked wrong but I seemed to remember it from somewhere, I think from, "Alice in Wonderland".

But whether it is right or wrong, it is resonant, particularly if, "curioser", is wrong because that is curious, is it not?

So, "curioser", sings to itself, "I am curious, curious and more curious".

So you are right after all.

And I stand corrected.
 

Nocapszy

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I hoped instead to have you get revenge by disproving the MBTI in full.
I have heretofore only heard bits and pieces.
I guess I could just ask you to rationally and fully present your opposition to the MBTI, but where's the fun in that?
Manipulation is so much more fun.

I agree, it is resonant.
 

Mole

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I hoped instead to have you get revenge by disproving the MBTI in full.
I have heretofore only heard bits and pieces.
I guess I could just ask you to rationally and fully present your opposition to the MBTI, but where's the fun in that?
Manipulation is so much more fun.

I agree, it is resonant.

It's plain I benefit from MBTI Central. So why do I offer a critique where it is not so welcome?

Well the first reason is my need to attention. So all I do is note that the background of this picture is MBTI, and so if I want to stand out from the background - if I want to become a foreground - I need to distinguish myself from the background.

The easiest thing to do is to become a MBTI denier - to become a MBTI atheist.

Essentially to become impious.

Piety being the last taboo.

So you might say, I am an iconoclast - a breaker of images - I break the image of MBTI.

The price I pay is the outrage of the believers; and my reward is attention.

In the Attention Economy it is all a matter of the Cost/Benefit Analysis - that is, does the reward outweigh the outrage - or could I get a better return elsewhere?

What do you think?
 

Virtual ghost

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How odd.

Western Civilization takes its very name from, "Western Europe".

And the religion of Western Civilization is Christianity.

And the very birthplace of Christianity is Western Europe.

To say that Western Europe is atheist is merely the special pleading of atheists. It is the propaganda of atheists.


Have you ever been in Europe in the last couple of years and stayed there for a few weeks?

Europe used to be Christian, but now it is not anymore. Every year there is less and less christianity around the place. In some citys there is less then 10% of people who can pass as real christians.

We can talk about this if you want to. I am pretty sure that I know about what I am talking about.



Isn't christianity actally from the Middle east?
 
S

Sniffles

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Have you ever been in Europe in the last couple of years and stayed there for a few weeks?

Europe used to be Christian, but now it is not anymore. Every year there is less and less christianity around the place. In some citys there is less then 10% of people who can pass as real christians.

We can talk about this if you want to. I am pretty sure that I know about what I am talking about.

There's actually been a resurgence of Christianity within European society. You should read Philip Jenkin's latest book on the topic.

In fact intellectual discourse concerning issues related to "Post-Secularism" are now becoming more widespread within Europe, and ironically much of it comes from Neo-Marxists circles, with the examples of Jürgen Habermas and Slavoj Žižek.
 

phoenix13

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It's plain I benefit from MBTI Central. So why do I offer a critique where it is not so welcome?

Well the first reason is my need to attention. So all I do is note that the background of this picture is MBTI, and so if I want to stand out from the background - if I want to become a foreground - I need to distinguish myself from the background.

The easiest thing to do is to become a MBTI denier - to become a MBTI atheist.

Essentially to become impious.

Piety being the last taboo.

So you might say, I am an iconoclast - a breaker of images - I break the image of MBTI.

The price I pay is the outrage of the believers; and my reward is attention.

In the Attention Economy it is all a matter of the Cost/Benefit Analysis - that is, does the reward outweigh the outrage - or could I get a better return elsewhere?

What do you think?


Well at least you're honest...

I think you should find out why you need the attention and then determine whether or not it's a problem.

If the need for attention stems from primal urges to connect with others, your cost/benefit analysis is obsolete.

It may stem from insecurity. Perhaps you feel you're not worth paying attention to and use psychology to manipulate others into giving you attention instead of letting it come naturally (I'm throwing that out there as a possibility, not a judgement).

The best/healthiest way to get attention is to persistently pay attention to others. Interact with them as they are.

What do you think?
 

phoenix13

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In our age of scientific discovery I would like to pose the question...

Why is religion still relevant in out time?

Obviously in past centuries it was a form of mind control and personality cults. Myths and legends to explain our Earth and the Universe and why we were here and to be good people or we shall rot in hell or be reborn as amoebas... but now in the year 2007, why is religion still relevant?

I'm going to address "Western Religion," and Christianity in particular.

I do think Nietzsche was onto something with his "God is dead" thing. We no longer stone people for disobeying their parents, or fear the sword of the "Angel of the Lord." However, that's not the whole picture. Religion is in fact evolving. Just look at changing doctrines towards divorce, abortion, homosexuality, etc.

Religion is always evolving as the worshipers and societies themselves evolve. Religion will never die or be irrelevant, because we're subtly changing it to fit our lives, and to be relevant.

Now, whenever things change, there's going to be a backlash, as change is scary. Change in religion is particularly threatening, as people are so invested in it and things that are "true" aren't supposed to change. This is where you get the fundamentalist back-lash, and that is what you're probably refering to in your post. It's relevant because people need to feel secure. Those are their needs, and what best fits their lives.


Hopefully that helps explain these observations a bit:

Europe used to be Christian, but now it is not anymore. Every year there is less and less christianity around the place. In some citys there is less then 10% of people who can pass as real christians.

There's actually been a resurgence of Christianity within European society. You should read Philip Jenkin's latest book on the topic.
 
S

Sniffles

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When did this resurgence started?

Just curious.


It's actually been in the making for quite a few years. If one can point to an immediate event that caused this, it was the death of Pope John Paul II.

We can also ask the question of which churches are in decline. More mainstream liberal churches are in big trouble, but more non-mainstream conservative churches have actually risen in the last decade or so.

Within Catholicism, traditional Latin masses have huge attendence while Novous Ordo ones are next to empty. Opus Dei has helped lead a religious revival in Italy, and Poland is training more missionaries than ever before. Also it should be mentioned that even if church attendence is down, the number of Europeans making spiritual pilgrimages to holy sites like Lourdes, Fatima, Vatican, etc. are at an all-time high.

Pope Benedict XVI attracts larger crowds than his predecessor ever did.

Jenkins also makes an interesting point concerning Europe's decline in church attendence:
"In fact, the rapid decline in the continent’s church attendance over the past 40 years may have done Europe a favor. It has freed churches of trying to operate as national entities that attempt to serve all members of society. Today, no church stands a realistic chance of incorporating everyone. Smaller, more focused bodies, however, can be more passionate, enthusiastic, and rigorously committed to personal holiness. To use a scientific analogy, when a star collapses, it becomes a white dwarf—smaller in size than it once was, but burning much more intensely. Across Europe, white-dwarf faith communities are growing within the remnants of the old mass church."
-- "Europe's Christian Comeback"

There's plenty more I can say about this topic really.
 
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