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Religion... why?

MPP

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It makes it sound like "don't outlaw this drug, people will find other drugs to get addicted to anyway!"
It also is a feeble defense that backfires on itself since it implies that Religion is bad. "There are worse things, but everyone's going to pick something that's going to make them sick anyway, so it's not like our product is a problem!"
You seem to miss the part where I mention a possible solution. (understanding ourselves better). Writing long messages just to try and reinforce your point of view doesn't mean you are thinking something through properly. This is more like a confirmation bias.

I wonder whether the people supporting the religion is all bad view are aware of the social science data that shows a decline in western societies, some of which correlates strongly with the decline of religious belief in the west. (break up of the family and increased crime rates for example) Also, whether you study any psychology outside of the MBTI?

One of my criticisms of religion is that it provides people with easy answers to big complicated questions. However, you are proof that if you remove the religion, people will still look for easy answers to complicated problems, and you will still create demons to believe in.

Instead of looking outside to find problems, you can also look inside.
 

MPP

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Saying we shouldn't just because people will find another thing to get slavish about is a poor man's excuse.
Again, I offered a possible solution which was overlooked. Understand and focus on the root problem. Human psychology created religion, so the problem is not religion, because that is only the symptom. Improving the individual is to improve everything else.
 

Coriolis

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Something else I wanted to add to this, for all those who demonise religion.
It looks like you are the one who introduced the idea of demonising religion.
Again, acknowledging the existence of something is not defending something. I acknowledge the existence of inequality, and that it happens naturally, that doesn't mean I defend it.
And criticising something is not demonizing it, unless that critique is devoid of evidence and reasoning. I have not seen that in this thread. Note the distinction @ceecee and I made between religion and spirituality. The second includes all of humanity's attempts to connect with something greater than ourselves: a higher power or deity, to use common parlance. The first adds the overlay of a human-made institution, which is where most of the abuses enter. These institutions can also be a force for good, enabling collective action by like-minded believers to help others. They are thus a double-edged sword and fair game for criticism, just as any human pursuilt.
You seem to miss the part where I mention a possible solution. (understanding ourselves better). Writing long messages just to try and reinforce your point of view doesn't mean you are thinking something through properly. This is more like a confirmation bias.

I wonder whether the people supporting the religion is all bad view are aware of the social science data that shows a decline in western societies, some of which correlates strongly with the decline of religious belief in the west. (break up of the family and increased crime rates for example) Also, whether you study any psychology outside of the MBTI?

One of my criticisms of religion is that it provides people with easy answers to big complicated questions. However, you are proof that if you remove the religion, people will still look for easy answers to complicated problems, and you will still create demons to believe in.

Instead of looking outside to find problems, you can also look inside.
I hope I don't need to tell you that correlation does not imply causality. What you describe as "breakup of the family" is really a growing acknowledgment that families can take many forms, not just the "one mother, one father, two kids" cookie cutter model. What is on the decline is societal attempts to shoehorn people into ill-fitting roles and functions, regardless of the reality of who they are. I call that progress.

Who in this thread is suggesting religion is all bad? How about spirituality? All human institutions and pursuits would benefit from improvement of ourselves through better self-knowledge. Such a statement is almost tautological. The more decentralized the religion, the more I have found it promotes that search for self-knowledge and improvement. This is because it pushes more of the responsibility for interpretation and decision onto the individual believer vs. reserving it to some hierarchical authority structure.

Authoritarians typically peddle easy answers to complicated questions. Consider Hitler, for instance: get rid of the Jews and a few other undesirable groups and all our problems will be solved. You don't need religion to push such an agenda. Your criticism thus applies to some forms of government, some educational practices, even some family and childrearing models. As you say, it is a criticism of human nature rather than something associated with a particular kind of human institution.
Again, I offered a possible solution which was overlooked. Understand and focus on the root problem. Human psychology created religion, so the problem is not religion, because that is only the symptom. Improving the individual is to improve everything else.
Religion is subject to the same human foibles as all of our other pursuits. As I stated before, it is mainly a matter of degree. Owing to its nature it amplifies our flaws so when harm is done, that harm tends to be greater.
 

Earl Grey

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You seem to miss the part where I mention a possible solution. (understanding ourselves better). Writing long messages just to try and reinforce your point of view doesn't mean you are thinking something through properly. This is more like a confirmation bias.

I wonder whether the people supporting the religion is all bad view are aware of the social science data that shows a decline in western societies, some of which correlates strongly with the decline of religious belief in the west. (break up of the family and increased crime rates for example) Also, whether you study any psychology outside of the MBTI?

One of my criticisms of religion is that it provides people with easy answers to big complicated questions. However, you are proof that if you remove the religion, people will still look for easy answers to complicated problems, and you will still create demons to believe in.

Instead of looking outside to find problems, you can also look inside.

Everything you say here is besides the point and is quite strangely personally pointed to me instead of the topic. In essence, you have contributed nothing further to the discussion. You have also created empty, unrelated statements while failing to explain any. You seem to be completely uninterested in actually discussing things outside your POV, but either way, I always post for the thread instead of just to the person I am responding to.


Again, I offered a possible solution which was overlooked. Understand and focus on the root problem. Human psychology created religion, so the problem is not religion, because that is only the symptom. Improving the individual is to improve everything else.

I wrote about how this doesn't 1) absolve religion of its inherent problems 2) doesn't absolve it from criticism either- pointing out its flaws and removing it as a barrier to this individual improvement you speak of could only help for reasons I've mentioned.

As you haven't actually added anything new, my response would still be the same.
 
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Tomb1

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Again, acknowledging the existence of something is not defending something. I acknowledge the existence of inequality, and that it happens naturally, that doesn't mean I defend it.

That's not inconsistent. White Supremacists, for example, routinely attempt to defend the precepts of their ideology by claiming that they are just acknowledging the existence of some so-called "truth" about reality.

In the example you gave with inequality, if you are specifically saying don't demonize inequality because it happens naturally then in my book it does mean you're defending it.

Despite you trying to soften your post by failing to mention the full context in the above reply, let me remind you that you were not just trying to articulate your position about the psychology behind atrocities and oppressions committed in the name of religion but you framed your case in the context of "the fault with demonizing religion"...
 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The theology involved is mostly what worries me. Assuming society goes on a downward trajectory, the theology means that doing anything about any of it will be difficult. The theology actually says that ultimately an apocalypse is a good thing, because then Jesus will come back and they will get vindicated for their beliefs and get a "crown of gold." So even if they helped caused these problems, they will double-down on it because this is precisely what they want to happen.

So the issue is how to get people away from adhering to this destructive theology. This is where psychology and philosophy might be useful. These can tell you why someone might need to believe in this. Based on the little of read and the totality of what I've experienced, I've concluded there's a certain existential terror involved with all of this related to human mortality and vulnerability. You need something that addresses that.
 
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Maou

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Organized religion is cancer, but religion in of itself is simply timeless wisdom disguised as a story that help our ancestors survive for 10s of 1000s of years. (yfw primates have also recently discovered religion.)

Humans yearn to have purpose and meaning in the all consuming void of chaos and death, and religion can mediate and temper that desire in a productive way, and give a sense of order. It is the foundation of culture as much as of survival. It is a sigular factor that gave us an edge in evolution, even if it doesn't inherently make sense logically. This is what separates us from animals; this desire for higher purpose. So many major aspects of modern society owes its origin to religion for existing. Such concepts like discipline, and staying around to raise your children etc. Monogamy creates higher quality offspring. It promotes goodness, and better values. Even if today, its now corrupt. It did used to mean something once upon a time. Religion is the origin of charity, and many other great things.

Also, people like to claim mind control but sometimes religion is the only thing keeping some idiots from commiting acts of violence with the fear of God.
 

Coriolis

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Organized religion is cancer, but religion in of itself is simply timeless wisdom disguised as a story that help our ancestors survive for 10s of 1000s of years. (yfw primates have also recently discovered religion.)
I like the highlighted. That is a good description. As our ability to understand the physical universe has improved, some of those topics have moved from the realm of religion to science, e.g. questions about our origins. But what's this about primates discovering religion? Do you have any references?

Humans yearn to have purpose and meaning in the all consuming void of chaos and death, and religion can mediate and temper that desire in a productive way, and give a sense of order. It is the foundation of culture as much as of survival. It is a sigular factor that gave us an edge in evolution, even if it doesn't inherently make sense logically. This is what separates us from animals; this desire for higher purpose. So many major aspects of modern society owes its origin to religion for existing. Such concepts like discipline, and staying around to raise your children etc. Monogamy creates higher quality offspring. It promotes goodness, and better values. Even if today, its now corrupt. It did used to mean something once upon a time. Religion is the origin of charity, and many other great things.
Religion is likely as old as humanity. Did religion really lead to discipline, attentive child rearing, and these other practices, or did all arise from some more fundamental cause? Even atheists have purpose in life and can be responsible members of society. Religion may encourage this, but it is not essential.

Also, people like to claim mind control but sometimes religion is the only thing keeping some idiots from commiting acts of violence with the fear of God.
And sometimes religion drives people to commit great acts of violence in the name of God, e.g. the crusades, the inquisition, terrorism by Islamic extremists, etc.
 

Maou

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I like the highlighted. That is a good description. As our ability to understand the physical universe has improved, some of those topics have moved from the realm of religion to science, e.g. questions about our origins. But what's this about primates discovering religion? Do you have any references?
One of many articles I pulled off google.
Religion is likely as old as humanity. Did religion really lead to discipline, attentive child rearing, and these other practices, or did all arise from some more fundamental cause? Even atheists have purpose in life and can be responsible members of society. Religion may encourage this, but it is not essential.
It all depends on how you view discipline. Because sports is a good example of a non-religious discipline. Discipline itself, is simply delayed gratification and controlling one's animalistic desires. Many religions teach delay, discipline, and control. If you can do that, you will reap the benefits. Sure Atheists find "purpose" in life but where did they get the ideas from?
And sometimes religion drives people to commit great acts of violence in the name of God, e.g. the crusades, the inquisition, terrorism by Islamic extremists, etc.
That only happens in groups of people who exist in the 3rd world or older societies, who's societies have not evolved yet. Islam is quite far behind Christianity in terms of religious evolution. Some things cannot be learned the easy way, and much of it requires peace. As a culture, and society, they have to adapt and change if they want peace. But it is also something you cannot force. Because it is culture and a way of life. Just as it took 100s of years to change American culture, it will take 100s of years of peace to change something like Islam.
 

Coriolis

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One of many articles I pulled off google.

It all depends on how you view discipline. Because sports is a good example of a non-religious discipline. Discipline itself, is simply delayed gratification and controlling one's animalistic desires. Many religions teach delay, discipline, and control. If you can do that, you will reap the benefits. Sure Atheists find "purpose" in life but where did they get the ideas from?

That only happens in groups of people who exist in the 3rd world or older societies, who's societies have not evolved yet. Islam is quite far behind Christianity in terms of religious evolution. Some things cannot be learned the easy way, and much of it requires peace. As a culture, and society, they have to adapt and change if they want peace. But it is also something you cannot force. Because it is culture and a way of life. Just as it took 100s of years to change American culture, it will take 100s of years of peace to change something like Islam.
You mentioned discipline. How do you view it? Your example supports my case that it cannot be attributed to religion. More like: religion can encourage and make use of a tendency already present. Where do you think someone finds purpose, if they do not believe in some higher power or follow any faith?

Civil society can overrule the tendency of a religious group to commit violence, but that doesn't mean the religion itself has reformed. Perhaps it has, perhaps not. Witness Mormons abandoning polygamy to comply with civil law, while never completely giving it up as an ideal - and a reality practiced by more extreme subgroups. Polygamy is not inherently violent, but much violence has been commited in the perpetuation of it, owing largely to doctrine about family structure and the subservient role of women.

There are elements in the modern US who continue to commit violence in the name of religion, generally fundamentalist Christians who do things like bomb women's clinics, kill doctors who provide abortions, and now target hospitals providing gender affirming care. This differs only in degree from the historical and third world cases, tempered more by modern civil society than by a change in goals of the religion itself.
 

ceecee

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One of many articles I pulled off google.

It all depends on how you view discipline. Because sports is a good example of a non-religious discipline. Discipline itself, is simply delayed gratification and controlling one's animalistic desires. Many religions teach delay, discipline, and control. If you can do that, you will reap the benefits. Sure Atheists find "purpose" in life but where did they get the ideas from?

That only happens in groups of people who exist in the 3rd world or older societies, who's societies have not evolved yet. Islam is quite far behind Christianity in terms of religious evolution. Some things cannot be learned the easy way, and much of it requires peace. As a culture, and society, they have to adapt and change if they want peace. But it is also something you cannot force. Because it is culture and a way of life. Just as it took 100s of years to change American culture, it will take 100s of years of peace to change something like Islam.
Evangelical and most fundamental Protestants line up with fundamental Islam on most points and even more when it's measured culturally.
 

Maou

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Evangelical and most fundamental Protestants line up with fundamental Islam on most points and even more when it's measured culturally.
Yes, and they share many of the same goals, but no one care if they do, partially because of multiculturalism states to accept people as they are. Even if they are fundementally against the root culture. Then people wonder why there is so much violence.
 

Maou

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You mentioned discipline. How do you view it? Your example supports my case that it cannot be attributed to religion. More like: religion can encourage and make use of a tendency already present. Where do you think someone finds purpose, if they do not believe in some higher power or follow any faith?
I view discipline as the area of reverting and deflecting human nature. Religion seeks to control human nature, thus is a natural apart of it. Purpose is a lot easier to understand and subjugate if it is tangible.
Civil society can overrule the tendency of a religious group to commit violence, but that doesn't mean the religion itself has reformed. Perhaps it has, perhaps not. Witness Mormons abandoning polygamy to comply with civil law, while never completely giving it up as an ideal - and a reality practiced by more extreme subgroups. Polygamy is not inherently violent, but much violence has been commited in the perpetuation of it, owing largely to doctrine about family structure and the subservient role of women.

Progress =/= factuality. What is fact, is monogamy = better offspring. People tend to focus on the negatives, over the positives in anything. Negatives last 10 times as much as positives in any relationship.
here are elements in the modern US who continue to commit violence in the name of religion, generally fundamentalist Christians who do things like bomb women's clinics, kill doctors who provide abortions, and now target hospitals providing gender affirming care. This differs only in degree from the historical and third world cases, tempered more by modern civil society than by a change in goals of the religion itself.
This is just focusing on the negative aspects of religion. It is also fairly extremist examples.
 

ceecee

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Yes, and they share many of the same goals, but no one care if they do, partially because of multiculturalism states to accept people as they are. Even if they are fundementally against the root culture. Then people wonder why there is so much violence.
I understand you don't actually disagree with the violence but be that as it may, the US is a pluralist society. Always has been. This is a main fear for conservative Americans. For people unable to cope with that fact, there are theocracies and more socially conservatives places to live.
 

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I realize this is a threads that was started way back in the ye olden days of 2007 and it's quite possible I may or may not have answered once before but I figure people were still in the thread so I will offer an answer to the OPs question...

...it's because people are messy and irrational and very seldomly behave in ways that make sense to anyone but them.
Since we have to share space and resources with same said people, I have found it's far better to spend your time finding out how to get along with said people than try to understand the reasons (though if you want to spend your time doing that, knock yourself out)

As someone who came back to religion (to be specific, Episcopal Christianity) some years ago, it was a purely personal choice that I made for me. I stress for me because I remain unconcerned with whether or not others agree with me and I have zero plans, agenda or desire to try and get anyone to see things the way I do. My journey is personal, it is entirely for me and me alone and no one else. I support the separation of church of state for this very reason, because I believe that one's religion should remain a personal decision to make (or not make, if that should be how that person feels)

It was something I felt I needed for me, and so it is a religion that I practice on my own, for entirely myself.
 

MPP

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That's not inconsistent. White Supremacists, for example, routinely attempt to defend the precepts of their ideology by claiming that they are just acknowledging the existence of some so-called "truth" about reality.

In the example you gave with inequality, if you are specifically saying don't demonize inequality because it happens naturally then in my book it does mean you're defending it.

Despite you trying to soften your post by failing to mention the full context in the above reply, let me remind you that you were not just trying to articulate your position about the psychology behind atrocities and oppressions committed in the name of religion but you framed your case in the context of "the fault with demonizing religion"...
White supremacy is only a serious issue if you believe the democrat politicians. Anyway, serious problem or not, they are extremists, and extremists are not motivated by logic, truth, and facts.

The universe is unequal. Good luck trying to solve that problem.

The biggest cause of mass atrocities is the collectivist view, over and individualist one. Not religion itself, it's the tribal instinct beneath it.
 

ceecee

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White supremacy is only a serious issue if you believe the democrat politicians. Anyway, serious problem or not, they are extremists, and extremists are not motivated by logic, truth, and facts.

The universe is unequal. Good luck trying to solve that problem.

The biggest cause of mass atrocities is the collectivist view, over and individualist one. Not religion itself, it's the tribal instinct beneath it.
White supremacy is what the US is based on. Laws were made by and to benefit white, male, landowners from the very beginning. You right wingers can't fathom something not being an opinion and anyone else not sharing any of your revisionism.
 

Tomb1

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White supremacy is only a serious issue if you believe the democrat politicians. Anyway, serious problem or not, they are extremists, and extremists are not motivated by logic, truth, and facts.
Unfortunately for you, white supremacy does not disappear by pointing the finger at democrat politicians.

The universe is unequal. Good luck trying to solve that problem. The biggest cause of mass atrocities is the collectivist view, over and individualist one. Not religion itself, it's the tribal instinct beneath it.
That is a patently fallacious oversimplification. So because Stalin expressed a collectivist view and committed mass atrocities, collectivist views cause mass atrocities. Come on.

I'm sticking with my original read...your unicorn concept of an all-encompassing tribal instinct is a specious defense of the atrocities committed in the name of religion.
 

The Cat

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tbh I dont think atrocities come from religion, any more than they come from collectivism, humans have never had a hard time coming up with justifications for atrocities and excusing them with both religion and science. the human capacity for atrocity is a seed within us planted far deeper than our institutions or intuitions that allow us to sooth ourselves in the face of wrongs darker than death or night. Pretty sure if our stomach acid and jaws were stronger, some humans would eat our prey alive, many only don't because they fear the uncertainty of account in the hereafter, many don't because they consider themselves more evolved. I say, whatever helps you sleep at night and not give into to your baser inner beast and eat your prey alive... If that's faith in the powers of the gods or faith in the sorcerers learning of science; whatever your poison, take care in how you imbibe your teachings lest the ritual be tainted.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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tbh I dont think atrocities come from religion, any more than they come from collectivism, humans have never had a hard time coming up with justifications for atrocities and excusing them with both religion and science. the human capacity for atrocity is a seed within us planted far deeper than our institutions or intuitions that allow us to sooth ourselves in the face of wrongs darker than death or night. Pretty sure if our stomach acid and jaws were stronger, some humans would eat our prey alive, many only don't because they fear the uncertainty of account in the hereafter, many don't because they consider themselves more evolved. I say, whatever helps you sleep at night and not give into to your baser inner beast and eat your prey alive... If that's faith in the powers of the gods or faith in the sorcerers learning of science; whatever your poison, take care in how you imbibe your teachings lest the ritual be tainted.
These days I think there's nothing out there.

I do agree that atrocities come from somewhere deeper than just an institution like religion. People are very susceptible to being whipped up into a mob, I've even seen it on this site.

Religion can definitely pander to people's worst impulses. The worst part is that it can provide a form of innoculation against any kind of thinking that might lead people to curb those impulses. This is a pretty big problem.
 
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