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My purpose in life

Costrin

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I would be glad to give ear to your hypotheses, although they'll only be as right as any old hypothesis.

Indeed, but they may trigger some thoughts that will let you identify for yourself the cause.

Mmk, so I may be projecting here, but anyway, whatever:
Perhaps it's because you think of it as "cheating" in a way.
Maybe because you simply wouldn't be able to trust that it would work and continue working.
Maybe because you wouldn't want to leave people, and consequently, they become unhappy (this is one of my main reservations about the machine).
Perhaps because of a religion.
Possibly because you would want to help others, and hooking yourself up to the machine would preclude that.
Perhaps because of a sense of duty you have to some others or some cause.
etc.

You can probably see my logic here now.
 

Polaris

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Okay, here are my responses.

-I don't think of it as cheating. I think of it as horribly shallow and meaningless. I would hate to throw away my life and all the things I live for in favor of uber-happiness.

-Even if I could trust the machine to keep working (and I was assuming I could), it would make no difference.

-I don't really have anyone to leave behind in the first place. I have no friends.

-I'm not religious.

-I don't have anyone I want to help, really, since I have no friends. That isn't to say I never encounter people I want to help, just that as I sit here typing, no one springs to mind.

-Yes, I have a sense of duty to my own higher values. That's exactly what I'm getting at when I say that happiness in itself doesn't necessarily win out over other considerations.
 

Costrin

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-Yes, I have a sense of duty to my own higher values. That's exactly what I'm getting at when I say that happiness in itself doesn't necessarily win out over other considerations.

So, you wouldn't do it because that would violate your values. Why do you not wish to violate your values? Presumably because you would feel horrible if you did?

Though logically one could conclude that the temporary feeling of having betrayed your values would be overridden by the machine, humans aren't logical creatures. So you are still choosing happiness, even if logically your choice isn't the most efficient way of achieving that.

imo
 

Polaris

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So, you wouldn't do it because that would violate your values. Why do you not wish to violate your values? Presumably because you would feel horrible if you did?

Though logically one could conclude that the temporary feeling of having betrayed your values would be overridden by the machine, humans aren't logical creatures. So you are still choosing happiness, even if logically your choice isn't the most efficient way of achieving that.

imo
Right, I'm choosing happiness, but a lesser happiness. That's my whole point, Costrin.
 

Azseroffs

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I have actually given this some thorough thought.
Many of my friends are drug users and it actually open up this whole philosophy that you are talking about.

Me and my friends share the idea that the goal in life is the greatest possible happiness. We used drugs because it made us happy. Eventually, I grew tired of it and when I tried to explain that I was over it they would argue "what is the problem? All there is to life is happiness, and here it is." I found this logic extremely hard to counter as it was inherently true.

This is the conclusion I came to.
I don't want to use drugs because it hinders my ability to think, and my ability to think is one of my highest regarded abilities. In other words, I value my mind and value my ability to possibly do greater good for mankind. My desire to do something constructive with my life gives me an inner sense of happiness that goes deeper than that happiness.

I realize it is somewhat different from a "happiness machine," but a happiness machine would be just as artificial, and if I had to choose, I would choose not to because I feel like I will gain more happiness from not choosing it even if that may be untrue.

Now if I didn't have the opportunity to choose, and I had been hooked up against my will... chances are that I would not choose to remove it. There is no reason for someone to choose to leave a feeling of complete happiness. The only reason why they would choose to leave it so that they could do something that follows their values, but values are just a way of inducing happiness, so a feeling of complete happiness would be like having a feeling of completing or following your values.

For the argument of "do we live for happiness or for values?" just think of a time when you completed something that was important to you or a time when you did "the right thing." How did you feel? Happy. So, why do we pursue our values? for happiness.
 

Azseroffs

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Right, I'm choosing happiness, but a lesser happiness. That's my whole point, Costrin.

You are choosing what you feel will be the greater happiness. Humans are not logical to the core.

Why do people cheat? I doubt their values support it. If they think about it, it can only create unhappiness in the long run, even if they do get away with it. They do it because they feel like it will make them happy at the time.
 

Polaris

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You are choosing what you feel will be the greater happiness.
No, I'm really not. My life is not an easy one. I deal with many troubles that most people could never dream of. But I want those troubles. Those troubles are where I find meaning.
 

Azseroffs

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No, I'm really not. My life is not an easy one. I deal with many troubles that most people could never dream of. But I want those troubles. Those troubles are where I find meaning.

why do you need to find meaning?
 

tibby

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I was talking with someone and something interesting she said: "Cause if there was no reason, there'd be no point in living. I could still be out there drinking and doing drugs and partying the hell out of life." It was interesting in a way because for her that meaning, reason meant Christianity. But isn't it true for everybody, There really isn't a point until there is a point. We need to justificate somehow, cause really without it we'd be as good as not being. For someone else it was humour, "life=nothing and if you can't find the humour it's meaningless".

We can find meaning and perceive in many different forms. We can give the power to other people, circumstances, situations, whatever basically

Purpose? Give the power to ourselves and remove it from any external. Create the purpose.
 

Azseroffs

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I don't need to, I simply want to.

The question stands
Why do you want to? How does it make you feel when you find meaning or get a step closer to it?

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that ALL human action is in the pursuit of what feels like the greatest possible happiness.
 

Polaris

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The question stands
Why do you want to? How does it make you feel when you find meaning or get a step closer to it?

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that ALL human action is in the pursuit of what feels like the greatest possible happiness.
Meaning gives me a calm satisfaction as opposed to the glorious pleasure that so many other things could bring me.
 

Azseroffs

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I was talking with someone and something interesting she said: "Cause if there was no reason, there'd be no point in living. I could still be out there drinking and doing drugs and partying the hell out of life." It was interesting in a way because for her that meaning, reason meant Christianity. But isn't it true for everybody, There really isn't a point until there is a point. We need to justificate somehow, cause really without it we'd be as good as not being. For someone else it was humour, "life=nothing and if you can't find the humour it's meaningless".

We can find meaning and perceive in many different forms. We can give the power to other people, circumstances, situations, whatever basically

Purpose? Give the power to ourselves and remove it from any external. Create the purpose.

I completely agree.
The goal is happiness, happiness derives from the subjective, subjectivity can be different for all and can even change by definition.


edit: happiness can also come from objective things built into us by nature. Like feeling satisfied from eating, love from connecting with people physically or mentally, or self accomplishment. These are often the root sources of our happiness as people can take different paths to reach these goals.

edit2: I just find it really funny. At the root it comes down to animalistic basic needs.
Our purpose can be chosen, but it's root is happiness, and the source of our happiness are survivalistic and reproductional needs
food - survival
self improvement - survival
social connection - survival/reproduction

We're no different than any other social animal.
The only difference I see is that self improvement can be fulfilled by improved intelligence.

edit3(I promise I'm done now): I had to add in security (or reduction of fear) as another basic source of happiness - also a survival instinct

Meaning gives me a calm satisfaction as opposed to the glorious pleasure that so many other things could bring me.

Why do you choose calm satisfaction over glorious pleasure?
It's just one form of happiness over another
 

chegra

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So you're saying that, if it were possible, you would hook yourself up to a dopamine tank and lay drooling into space for the rest of you life. That's an ideal consistent with any morality that considers happiness as the greatest good.

Isn't that like heaven?
Happiness forever in the sky?(What 95% of pop. are looking for)
 
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