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Scientific Racism & Racial Theory

Ezra

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I'm aware of the extreme sensitivity and taboo surrounding this subject, but I'm fascinated by it, and thought that this would be the ideal place to bring up such a subject, since I'm surrounded by open-minded people. If your only response is "oh my god, you racist", or something similar, then I politely ask you to fuck off.

I'm going to expound upon my current view, which is a kind of brainstorm or mish mash of ideas, and which is totally open to both constructive criticism and a total change. I see myself as an advocate of objective fact, and so if my thinking is not factual, I'd like to know about it. Now, to clarify, I'm a fence-sitter at the moment, for lack of evidence. However, I am seeing two possible alternatives at the moment, and I'd like to see some evidence before I adopt the more racially-orientated viewpoint. You might at this point be looking at the computer screen with complete disgust or bafflement at my choice of words, but consider what I'm talking about and please, respond accordingly. I'm not writing to get trounced by hate mail and bad words from everyone on the board. I'm writing to gain a more appreciative understanding of the world. Nothing I say will lead me to change the way I act or speak towards people.

The subject I'm most interested in is race and intelligence. I want to know whether or not there is (even a rough) correlation between race and intelligence. I read about comments made by James Watson, a distinguished scientist, a few months ago. The first obstacle encountered is to get past all the moronically subjective and fabricated crap various people have attributed to the scientist as having said. The second obstacle is deciding whether or not his comments are true or not - is there actually a correlation between race and intelligence?

Firstly, I need to define what I understand to be race. A lot of people (including me) see "race" as being "the human race" - that is every human being. However, another view which I see as perfectly legitimate is the view that there are different races within humankind. When people like Watson use "race", they are talking about whites, blacks, browns and yellows, and this is what I'm interested in. Another view, propounded by my housemate (who is a scientist (albeit a chemist rather than a biologist, which his father is)), is that there is a single human race, but that black people are less evolved than other types of people (I will call them "races" for simplicity's sake). This is, according to him, because black people are biologically closer to apes (from which every human being evolved) than other races. Think about the logic of this: apes -> black people -> white people. He backs this claim up by explaining that Africans cannot rule themselves, and are better with white rule e.g. Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sudan, Sierra Leone and so on and so forth. I realise that this looks backed up by irrational prejudice (and indeed I do think it is, and he actually recognises that it is), but I do think he has a valid point which needs to be properly challenged instead of just being dumped in the bin. Now, I have a few problems with this which I shall outline.

Firstly, it is quite possible (although not necessarily true, unless someone could perhaps show me evidence to suggest that it is), that the human race evolves as one, and that there are no sub-races which evolve slower (such as black people) or quicker (such as white people). In this case, skin colour does not determine intelligence, but is rather due to melanin content in the skin. That is, if I and a collection of other white people moved into Africa into a colony and remained there, our ancestors would become black people over a long period of time. (If you disagree, by the way, you're going to have to dismiss the melanin argument - which is my main argument - and come up with a better one (please do so, I really want to hear more opinions on this issue)).

My second issue is twofold; the first part is that there are some external phenomena which means the Africans would have a problem ruling themselves, as well as a problem with evolving societally. Colonial exploitation has led to societal chaos within various African tribes in some cases (black slavery), as well as loss of natural and valuable resources in others. Moreover, introducing a political system (in this case whatever was at the time the predominant system in Europe) which does not take into account the natural progression of civilisation, can damage a country long-term. The second part involves a straight-off refutation of his view, by appeal to certain countries which run counter to this idea. Ignoring the north African countries (which are generally run by brown as opposed to black people), countries such as Botswana and Gabon have made progress - compare their ever-expanding GDPs of $15,800 (it was $14,300 in 2007) and $14,900 respectively with Zimbabwe's GDP per capita of $200. I'm sure there are other countries in Africa just like Botswana and Gabon, but for lack of research, I can't refer to them.

So, back to race theory. What do you make of it, and of what I've said?
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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Hmmm... Well, if there are statistical differences between the IQs of different races, I'd suppose that most of it is because they have been raised in a different culture. I don't really know anything about these theories and it must be quite hard to find much cold-headed research about this. Most of it is just people wanting desperately to prove they are better than the others. Anyhow... I don't see that it is completely impossible that there are some differences between the brains of people that have been living in a very different climate and maybe even have been using their brains differently. Still, it seems more likely that the IQ scoring differences are because they are not as educated in Africa.

EDIT: And, about the "ape > black > white" theory... It's just silly. Does your friend think that they just stopped evolving at all because their skin color hasn't changed much?
 

pippi

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The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense

Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions. Read this.
 

ptgatsby

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Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions. Read this.

Agreed.

Also, you'll need a broad understanding of the cumulative effect of the flynn effect, education and cultural biases in the measuring instruments before you can get even the remotest idea of how complex this question is in reality.
 

A Schnitzel

WTF is this dude saying?
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I'm not sure what you've heard about the IQ, but I'll shed some light for you. IQ isn't entirely innate. People learn how to think. If this wasn't the case american schools would be wasting billions in tax payer dollars.

Anyone who thinks a small statistical IQ difference has anything to do with whether people can rule themselves or not should be shot for poor usage of logic.
 

Mole

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Race theory has a hard row to hoe ever since the, "Origin of Species", and the discovery of the structure of DNA by Watson and Crick.

We are exquisitely related through our genes, not only with each other but with each living thing.

The genetic structure of life on Earth is exquisitely beautiful and true.

While the theory of race is an ugly lie.

And to understand the relations of people on Earth we need to look not much further than history.

But revolutionary cultures tend to dismiss history, and look to the future. And in the process make it difficult to know where they have come from and their place in the world.

And not knowing themselves they seize upon any dodgy theory to give meaning to their lives, such as race theory or MBTI.

And indeed race theory and MBTI are intimately related.

MBTI is plagerised from the book, "Personality Types".

And, "Personality Types", was written to complement the theory of somatic types.

And as you know the theory of somatic types divides us into Aryans, Jews, Slavs, Asians and Negroes.

And the theory of somatic types got lost in WW II but MBTI survived and thrived.

And although today it is embarrassing to be called a racist, it it not embarrassing to be a follower of MBTI.

MBTI is a fig leaf for racism.
 

Ezra

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Still, it seems more likely that the IQ scoring differences are because they are not as educated in Africa.

Which would introduce the question of why they are not as educated in Africa.

EDIT: And, about the "ape > black > white" theory... It's just silly. Does your friend think that they just stopped evolving at all because their skin color hasn't changed much?

Yes, essentially.

The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense

Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions.

Since you used the words "refutation", "hypothesis" and "assumption" in conjunction with your referring to what I have written, it's clear that you didn't read what I wrote.


Likewise.


I read that, and what I see is a whirlwind of different opinions, none of which is remotely conclusive. What's your point? In fact, why are we even talking about IQ? I certainly didn't introduce the notion.

Also, you'll need a broad understanding of the cumulative effect of the flynn effect, education and cultural biases in the measuring instruments before you can get even the remotest idea of how complex this question is in reality.

What question?

I'm not sure what you've heard about the IQ, but I'll shed some light for you. IQ isn't entirely innate. People learn how to think. If this wasn't the case american schools would be wasting billions in tax payer dollars.

Again, I didn't mention IQ.
 

nozflubber

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Interestingly enough, I think this topic has a lot to do with the division of human temperments and why we see temperment numbers skewed in different populations
 

professor goodstain

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Not so much pure white gringos but more or less indoeuropean genetics. Indoeuropeans can no longer oppress those of color, so what do they oppress instaid, every damn thing else. Example-peta, they are now protesting dog shows and hoarse drawn carriages. Thus giving one less purpose for dogs and hoarses, and putting them on more of a fast track to extinction. And we all know peta is almost exclusively white. You see, it's in the language. Ts will relate to that a bit more than Fs. Do we not think to some extent in language? Problem is that the language those with tendancies of oppression is always indoeuropean. Indoeuropean is the newest of all language classes. Thus being the most half ass, naive and adolescent. Those on the side of disregarding all this as junk, do not know an ancient language and their indoeuro thought patern will emmediately scorn my spelling ability. And transparently white. or rather gringo. or rather indo. Obviously giving us an arrogant way of calling someone stupid (indo).
Those who are not of indoeuro decent keep reminance of their ancient language in their genetic wiring. So, you see, they ASIST in the evolvement of indoeuro english via what gringos call ebonics. Teach ebonics in school?---Straight.
 

ptgatsby

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What question?

Your statement was;

In this case, skin colour does not determine intelligence,

That's the context of my comment. I'm afraid you are rather transparent, and it's not likely you'll be able to hide behind "well that's not what I said" here, FWIW.
 

Shadow

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Hmmm... Well, if there are statistical differences between the IQs of different races, I'd suppose that most of it is because they have been raised in a different culture. I don't really know anything about these theories and it must be quite hard to find much cold-headed research about this. Most of it is just people wanting desperately to prove they are better than the others. Anyhow... I don't see that it is completely impossible that there are some differences between the brains of people that have been living in a very different climate and maybe even have been using their brains differently. Still, it seems more likely that the IQ scoring differences are because they are not as educated in Africa.

I actually saw a programme on the BBC about this last week (Andrew Moseley was trying to see if he could become more intelligent or something), and they mentioned that in America IQ tests showed that there appeared to be a growing gap between the IQ results of the black and white American populations as children grew older. Some scientist sympathetic to the black community is trying to find out why so they can close the gap, and the broad thrust of it is he reckons it's a difference in the values held by teen subcultures in the different races (obviously that's a massive generalisation, but the teen subcultures which are seen as majority black or white. Probably it's not so much the person's race as the subculture which they engage in which is the issue.) In other words, he suggests that the teen subculture in majority black areas values intelligence and success at school less than teen subcultures in predominantly white areas.
I can't deny or confirm this because I've never met anyone from a black American area. Or even any American area!

I would imagine this is why so many East Asians and Indians seem to be more intelligent than a lot of white people as well. It's to do with your values at your upbringing. In Japan and China, for example, they're working almost all the time! It's totally frowned upon if you're not intelligent or don't get excellent results at school. So people try a bit harder than if it was seen as not a big deal. This probably means they develop less well in other aspects than other races, such as other races (maybe 'cultures' is a better word?) might come out as less intelligent in IQ tests but might have more practical or emotional intelligence. It's down to cultural values.

Reactions?
 

Not_Me

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Physical features are undeniably correlated to race. Why would IQ not not be? Different environments favor different features over time.

That said, I think group statistics are of no relevance. There are smart and dumb people of all races.
 

pippi

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Since you used the words "refutation", "hypothesis" and "assumption" in conjunction with your referring to what I have written, it's clear that you didn't read what I wrote.
You specifically stated that you are seeing two possible alternatives which lead me and everyone else who responded to believe that you were presenting your hypotheses of the topic.
From your OP:
I'm going to expound upon my current view, which is a kind of brainstorm or mish mash of ideas, and which is totally open to both constructive criticism and a total change. I see myself as an advocate of objective fact, and so if my thinking is not factual, I'd like to know about it. Now, to clarify, I'm a fence-sitter at the moment, for lack of evidence. However, I am seeing two possible alternatives at the moment, and I'd like to see some evidence before I adopt the more racially-orientated viewpoint. You might at this point be looking at the computer screen with complete disgust or bafflement at my choice of words, but consider what I'm talking about and please, respond accordingly. I'm not writing to get trounced by hate mail and bad words from everyone on the board. I'm writing to gain a more appreciative understanding of the world. Nothing I say will lead me to change the way I act or speak towards people.



Ezra said:
I read that, and what I see is a whirlwind of different opinions, none of which is remotely conclusive. What's your point? In fact, why are we even talking about IQ? I certainly didn't introduce the notion.

Again, I didn't mention IQ.
You mentioned in your OP that you wanted to gain a more appreciative understanding of the world and then dismissed differing opinions. Um yeah, this will by my last interaction with you.

You mentioned intelligence right here:
The subject I'm most interested in is race and intelligence. I want to know whether or not there is (even a rough) correlation between race and intelligence.
 

Anja

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I really don't know if it's possible in a culture run by political correctness to discuss the questions which you have Ezra. But I'm certain that many, if not all of us, who have desired to understand the concepts behind inequality have had to struggle with some of the things you've mentioned.

And it is very difficult to find information one can trust because everyone's running their own agendas behind the info.

People are frightened of appearing racist. And with good reason. And many of us lack the information to respond to your questions in a way which wouldn't raise the ire of others.

I don't know you well enough to judge whether you are being disingenuous or whether you are sincerely seeking facts. I don't know your motivation for seeking knowledge.

But, having been raised in an extremely homogenous culture I have spent many years trying to find answers to what may seem ignorant questions to others. Not necessarily your questions but other similarly puzzling ones. Such as do Black people sunburn? Heh. Sad, but true. I had to ask. And always afraid to ask for fear of scorn or giving offense.

My solution has been to make friends of people from many different cultural backgrounds and ask "the experts" from their individual backgrounds the touchy questions I've had. And that only once we have established trust with each other.

I don't know how it is possible to do this with strangers.
 

Kangirl

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I'm afraid you are rather transparent, and it's not likely you'll be able to hide behind "well that's not what I said" here, FWIW.

Word.

For the record, I oppose political correctness (or whatever you want to call it) hampering scientific research. I say that as a disclaimer - I don't want to be misinterpreted as "oooh well we might not like the results of x,y or z experiment so we should just sweep it all under the carpet and pretend it never existed".

That said, although I am aware of works like The Bell Curve, I haven't read them/it, and I have nothing like enough specific knowledge on the material covered in it to comment in a worthwhile sense.

But just as a tip, Ezra my ENTJ friend, if one is trying to come off as sincerely open-minded and interested, it's probably best *not* to include sentences that refer to the "logic" of black people being less evolved/closer to primates than white people. Yes, yes, it was your friend, I got that, but still. Just a tip.

Gawd, the shite that gets talked around here! :doh:
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
I oppose political correctness concerning issues of races, but this whole obsession with IQ is nonsense. I already posted some of thoughts on IQ. I'm particularly disturbed when many Bell Curve enthusiasts seem to argue that one's IQ determines their worth as a human person.

Concerning issues about the existence of race, I agree that the PC conception of race being purely a "social construct" is BS. Race certainly does exist as a biological entity. What relevance this has in regards to social issues is where the real question is. Too often people confuse social communities built on kinship with "race" in the biological sense.

I'll add onto this later.
 

Nadir

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Victor is right, there is no genetic basis for race in that if you go way back you'll see that there's no such distinction among the hominids or whatever the un-evolved, non erect humanoids were called. The understanding of "race" is "black people, white people" does stem from genetic factors however, specifically, the skin color stems from a much higher amount of melanin within the skin texture. Keeping in mind that melanin plays a critical role in sunlight (and therefore harmful UV-ray) absorption, that temperatures were generally higher back then, and that the African area is known for its sweltering weather patterns anyway, perhaps it becomes easier to see why that skin color eventually emerged as a necessary facet of evolution and survival back when we all hanged around that particular continent. Keep in mind that skin color generally becomes whiter the more you go up on the Northern Europe-Europe-Africa highway. The reason is the same, a process spread out to hundreds of thousands of years.

Intelligence is a much, much more different animal. The basis for improved intelligence is not some "white" person's inherent genetic inclination; it might be now, but it definitely wasn't way back. Intelligence and complexity of thought patterns are improved not by sheer luck: they are shaped by any form of interaction between humans, peaceful or hostile. Geographic factors also play a role in this: there's a reason why Europe is in the center of most world maps, because basically, even though civilization didn't quite start off there, it certainly made its quantum leaps there and around the Mediterranean littoral zones, while at the same time the still-black people of Africa kept stagnating. They certainly didn't have much choice: As you may well know, the lands of Africa aren't known for their agricultural generosity, something Europeans, Mesopotamians, Asians and the Americans (back when we didn't know about them) greatly enjoyed. And you definitely don't need to be a genius to know that the agricultural revolution fueled premodern civilization.

Premodern civilizations, you say? Well that's just the beginning, and where the story actuallly starts (well even before that, actually, but it's a loooooong one). Just read up on the Greek and Roman empires, their formations and economic systems and you'll start to get an idea as to how they evolved the way they did. I'm feeling too jaded to type even more, but know this: Civilization cradled the mind, and the mind cradled civilization. Something the Africans did not ever get to do.
 
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Anja

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I'm ignorant of whether anyone has designed a culturally specific IQ test. It goes without saying that the standard measure was developed by caucasian males.

I suppose there would be resistance from both sides to such a thing.

Does anyone know about this?
 
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