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Is language essential for rational thinking?

SolitaryWalker

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And because we're human, philosophy doesn't have a choice but to contend with limitations imposed by language.


Yes, but we dont have to be confined to the language that we have now, we can expand on it. We can make new words up even new rules of communication. There will be plenty of ideas that we would not be able to talk about, but still less than we currently have.
 

Rajah

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Yes, but we dont have to be confined to the language that we have now, we can expand on it. We can make new words up even new rules of communication. There will be plenty of ideas that we would not be able to talk about, but still less than we currently have.
This is irrelevant. I'm not talking about the limitations of our language; I'm talking about the limitations of language, period.
 

SolitaryWalker

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This is irrelevant. I'm not talking about the limitations of our language; I'm talking about the limitations of language, period.

Well than we have the Kantian distinction between the noumena and the phenomena.

Many things just can not be experienced and this is exactly where we run into the limitations of language.

For whatever we can experience we can talk about as we can expand our language to be fitting in that case.

Here are things that cant be experienced, time, space, motion, heat, light. And infinity of space and time is the root to many of them.

We can feel many of those, but we can't experience them for their innermost essence. Hence since God is infinite, we can never know what he is because we can only hear about him from testimony or draw conclusions based on partial evidence but we know not enough about him to reflect on him with sufficient plausibility.

But again, even many things of this world are so subjective, like for instance, the taste in your mouth, or this or that feeling can be symbolized, but only vaguely, hence we can keep on going down that route till the point where we find ourselves where we cant find the words that adequately depict what we are experiencing for all our worth.
 

Rajah

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Well than we have the Kantian distinction between the noumena and the phenomena.

Many things just can not be experienced and this is exactly where we run into the limitations of language.

For whatever we can experience we can talk about as we can expand our language to be fitting in that case.

Here are things that cant be experienced, time, space, motion, heat, light. And infinity of space and time is the root to many of them.

We can feel many of those, but we can't experience them for their innermost essence. Hence since God is infinite, we can never know what he is because we can only hear about him from testimony or draw conclusions based on partial evidence but we know not enough about him to reflect on him with sufficient plausibility.

But again, even many things of this world are so subjective, like for instance, the taste in your mouth, or this or that feeling can be symbolized, but only vaguely, hence we can keep on going down that route till the point where we find ourselves where we cant find the words that adequately depict what we are experiencing for all our worth.
You're suggesting we need to come up with words to describe novel phenomena, correct?

I'm suggesting that your experience of the novel phenomena is necessarily limited by language. It's how we assess and describe things. What we ultimately call the phenomenon is irrelevant.
 

SolitaryWalker

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You're suggesting we need to come up with words to describe novel phenomena, correct?

I'm suggesting that your experience of the novel phenomena is necessarily limited by language. It's how we assess and describe things. What we ultimately call the phenomenon is irrelevant.

We can still have thoughts that we cant describe. For instance when I read in a novel something that is confined by words, I can go on to dream about it and come up with ideas that are not limited by words. I am sure many creative artists had ideas that are literally indescribable.
 

Rajah

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We can still have thoughts that we cant describe. For instance when I read in a novel something that is confined by words, I can go on to dream about it and come up with ideas that are not limited by words. I am sure many creative artists had ideas that are literally indescribable.
I maintain, the inquiry is bogus.
 

Bushranger

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. . . Truth is immutable . . .
The definition of truth in philosophy is like Euclid's axioms in geometry. It is a dangerous term to fling round. I will accept that truth is immutable in the sense that in any particular instance, what is true shall remain true, and what is false shall remain false.

The definition of truth is not immutable however, in many areas (e.g. formal logic) it is defined through linguistics as a property belonging to sentences. In this context the concept of absolute truth is nonsensical.

In any case I don't see the relevance of this to the subject at hand. The thread is about modern linguistic determinism. Is our language a limiting factor for thought? Arguments on this topic usually include silly references to Eskimos and different words for snow, or not so silly references (i.e. based on actual research) to counting ability in remote tribes that have limited number systems.

The way we think depends on the neurological structure of the brain.
The properties of the brain depend on physical processes, not philosophical ones.
 

Kanamori

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Rajah said:
Second, I don't know that we're asking the right questions. Once we learn language it is tied up in everything we do. Language is you. You can't separate language from anything you're thinking about. Either (1) we all have an innate language template, and the question is moot, or (2) all but a very few exceptions are exposed to language at a really young age and formalize it before we are capable of full-blown rational thought, in which case the question is pretty much moot.

Why? How are language and math linked then, I didn't think math abilities went with Wernicke's and Broca's areas. From Wiki, "if one constructs an artificial language in which syntactic rules are based on the linear order of words rather than the hierarchical structure of phrases, Broca's area does not play an active role in managing this rule." What parts of the brain is that related to then? When Wernicke's is damaged, does the person lose the ability to act rationally, because their ability to understand content essentially disappears? Could you point me to some resources to explore this more, if you know of some good ones w/o having to dig for them?
 

Rajah

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Why? How are language and math linked then, I didn't think math abilities went with Wernicke's and Broca's areas. From Wiki, "if one constructs an artificial language in which syntactic rules are based on the linear order of words rather than the hierarchical structure of phrases, Broca's area does not play an active role in managing this rule." What parts of the brain is that related to then? When Wernicke's is damaged, does the person lose the ability to act rationally, because their ability to understand content essentially disappears? Could you point me to some resources to explore this more, if you know of some good ones w/o having to dig for them?
Hmm, I'll have to dig up some resources (remember, I'm years out of practice!). I'll see what I can find, then post. Just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring your questions, but I have to think about them some more.



EDIT - And wow, this is a pretty cool article.
 

Kanamori

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Well, in between some papers I'll probably talk to my old Linguistics and Psychology professors and get some links from here, and post them when I get around to all that. Thanks for the link.
 

Cygnus

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Is it possible to think without using words? Thinking in the most generalized case doesn't need to involve words... for example when I ask you to think about a horse... the first thing that appears in your mind is probably an image of a horse rather than a description of what a horse is... or the word HORSE. Words are simply the means to provide a symbolic representation towards ideas/objects... the way to store multiple experiences we have on a given topic. It appears to me to be a way to get around the limits of our mental processing capacity (working memory is 7 plus minus 2 objects). By labelling a huge list of experiences together as a symbol (one word), we can now start to relate different experiences/ideas together.

Here's a what-if scenario... What if our minds have unlimited processing capacity... do we still need language to think rationally? Feel free to completely bash this nonsensical idea if you feel like it... just provide justification for your thoughts.

http://www.pabuddhistvihara.net/uploads/Q33psychicPower.pdf
http://www.netplaces.com/psychic/what-is-psychic-ability/early-psychics.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=TW7lHYwXhS4C&pg=PA105#v=onepage&q&f=false

Possible evidence that we were capable of telepathy as early as ancient times.
 

Mole

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Our Mother Tongue, Literacy, and eLanguage: Spoken, Written, and Electronic

There is spoken language which we learn at our mother's knee: our mother tongue.

And then there is the written language which we are compelled by State law to learn at cerified schools, called literacy.

And last there is the electronic language which we are using now: elanguage.
 
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Ginkgo

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Concepts are essential for rational thinking. Even though verbal/written language is just a mode of conceptual expression, it is not necessary. I guess the line begins to blur if you think that having an inner-monologue means you're communicating to yourself, or if you believe that thoughts are forms of expressing something deeper but still essential to who you are.
 

Mole

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Concepts are essential for rational thinking. Even though verbal/written language is just a mode of conceptual expression, it is not necessary. I guess the line begins to blur if you think that having an inner-monologue means you're communicating to yourself, or if you believe that thoughts are forms of expressing something deeper but still essential to who you are.

What is nice is when our inner talk stops temporarily and we are alert and awake.

It is though the world talks, not in words, but in shapes.
 

xisnotx

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I've always thought in "associations" and I'm not sure how people think otherwise. When you say "think of a horse" I immediately consider all objects (as opposed to concepts, or people or other groupings I have) and separate a class labeled "horse", from the class "animal", and think of all the associations of that class.

It means that, when I think of "horse", I immediately think of things like "stallion" and "mare". I think of qualities of horses; "big" and "powerful" and "flappy gums". I also think of "donkey" and "zebra" and other animals of burden.

I don't think in language and I never have. I think this is because, growing up, I essentially learnt (during that pivotal period of time) two completely different languages so I quickly became aware of how language is just a tool and is completely unnecessary in thinking.

It's why I was a natural at logic. I think in "objects" or "classes" and what can be done to those objects...how they associate.

Interesting tidbit...all things that can be done to an object can be can done by adding it to another, comparing it to another, or considering its opposite. That is...negation, conjunction and disjunction completes all associations of any object. Something I needed to go to a logic class to figure out, but something that I couldn't believe I hadn't realized prior!

Unfortunately...when you get to thinking about all this...you realize just how useless thinking actually is. It's like...my thoughts think themselves at this point. So, I've moved on to other modes of interacting with the world.

Feelings, man. That stuff is tough.
 

five sounds

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haven't read the thread really so excuse me if i'm repeating something, but i think it's definitely possible to think outside of language. the problem comes in communicating those concepts effectively so they can be shared and thought about by other people. which is important.

also, on the receiving end, it limits the conceptual stimuli you're exposed to. you might be able to understand a concept much better if language had a more precise or nuanced way of expressing it. i think knowing different languages can help come at concepts from different angles, and be able to think about them in different ways, which is cool.
 

INTP

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Yes. "Thinking" without words is not controlled by consciousness and is thus irrational by definition.
 

Mole

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There are many languages and many ways of expressing a single language.

For instance, mathematics is a logical language. And semaphore is a logical language.

In fact we could say that anything logical is a language.
 
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