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Two New Bibles Preach A Hip, Eco-Friendly Gospel

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Sniffles

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Fear and immaturity are right here, plainly to be read. Is this the attitude of a follower of Christ, or a slave to church dogma? I'm sure it is if we take the offensive, abominal and criminal historical actions of the church into account. Souls uncounted were tortured and destroyed in the name of the church to "protect" the integrity of it's position. This is old, available and well-understood history motivated by the basest of human interests with no real reference to divine law. Burn heretics? are you serious? Do you think what happened long ago was forgotten; that writing a statement as patently offensive as this could be excused by your disgust for these two publications? This is simply out of line.

Would I buy either of these books? Probably not. I can find passages myself in conventional sources to support our responsibility to creation...and I am sure others could find just as many passages supporting the notion of creation as essentially ours to dispense with as we see fit without reference to stewardship or husbandry. The idea of "slicking up" a version of the New Testament to draw in an audience who might otherwise ignore it should offend only those who stand to lose something from that possibility and have no faith that the word can stand up to any presentation. There should therefore be no representation of the Word in any other form than that available to a select few, or approved by them? Sounds very familiar. Of course when efforts were first made to provide legible translations to the laity centuries ago the church took persistent steps to capture, torture and execute those trying to expand the understanding of the Word. It is disappointing to see that this mindset survives especially in one who has gifts enough to amend many of the hurts perpetrated by the church and expand a truly "universal" understanding.

The uniform of faith is that of the healer, the open, helpful hand and guide; not that of the judge, soldier or executioner as it has all too often been understood to be by insitutions hoarding and exercising it's inherent power, the ultimate, pathetic sorrowful irony of our history.

You wish to burn books? Or better yet those books along with those who might read them and come to a different conclusion than you? I cannot with propriety dispense my full response to your writing on this forum. In short it could best be expressed by the phrase "grow up".


Hirsch, I actually have great respect for you. So in light of that I'm choosing to just ignore most of this post.

And yes I'm very aware of the history involved here. For one thing, the opening of the Vatican archives have shown that the scale of burnings, torture, and executions in general was vastly exaggerated. In many cases, burnings of effigees was falsely counted as actual executions.

According to researchers into the archives, barely 2% of people ever brought before the Inquisition were executed - and even then most of the time was done under provisions in secular law. Henry Kamen for one noted that the Inquisition had the lowest execution rate of any court in Europe at the time - an average of 3 people per year.

As for translating the Bible; that was done throughout the early Medieval period. Alfred the Great comissioned an English translation of the Bible, Charlamenge commisioned a translation into German; and the missionaries Ss. Cyril and Methodius translated it into Old Slavonic.
 

Journey

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Night, I confess that I find it hard to keep up with the reading on this forum. I did you an injustice. I hope you will forgive me. Yours is not the usual position on evolution. I'm not sure from my cursory reading now where you stand on Creationist thinking. I withdraw, humbled.
 

BerberElla

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Hirsch, I actually have great respect for you. So in light of that I'm choosing to just ignore most of this post.

Hmm, I would have thought having great respect for someone would mean you would not "ignore" most of their post. :shock:
 

Night

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Night, I confess that I find it hard to keep up with the reading on this forum. I did you an injustice. I hope you will forgive me. Yours is not the usual position on evolution. I'm not sure from my cursory reading now where you stand on Creationist thinking. I withdraw, humbled.

No, madam -- there is no need to apologize.

You've paid me no injustice. You protected an opinion important to your identity. There is no shame in defending what you hold dear.

The error was likely an obstacle in clarity on my part as opposed to a failure of comprehension on yours.
 

kuranes

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Personally I'm still holding out for the "Psychonaut's Bible" and I know some other folks waiting for the "Punk Bible". Babble on, Babylon.
 
S

Sniffles

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Hmm, I would have thought having great respect for someone would mean you would not "ignore" most of their post. :shock:

Well he certaintly made some remarks directed at my character; and I have no intention of turning this into a personal dispute that could ruin the respect we have for each other.

I think Hirsch overreacted to my remark, which he sometimes does.

I did address him on the arguments concerning the Inquisition and translating the Bible - so it's not like I'm refusing to discuss with him in toto.
 

kuranes

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Here's a book that I read which was interesting, and not too terribly tangential. Don't let the "in your face" anti-religion header of the site discourage you from checking out the book that they are providing free access to. It was a book that was much shorter than a long one like "An Experiment in Christology", which I also own and never got around to reading.

The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity
 
S

Sniffles

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I don't understand these religious folks and the outrage they experience when someone finds differently to them.

It's not really a matter of mere disagreement with people. I get along quite well here with people of various belief systems. Just last night I was chatting with alcea rosea, who's a skeptic. Then this past week or so I discussed privately with Amargrith about her pagan beliefs. Then me and Orangey are always bantering with each other about our differing perspectives. heart is a Gnostic. And the list goes on.

I'll even openly state that often I prefer the company of non-Christians over Christians.


I wonder why they don't just let them be wrong.
I certainly respect peoples' right to their beliefs; but that doesn't mean I have to accept their beliefs as actually being right. And it certainly doesn't mean somebody has the right to disrespect my beliefs.

It would seem to make sense -- most of these religious nuts develop and foster ill will for their 'adversaries' and opposition. You'd think they'd be comfortable (since they're so sure that it WILL go this way) letting them burn in hell for the wrong beliefs.

Because our Lord called upon us to love our enemies.
 
S

Sniffles

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Here's a book that I read which was interesting, and not too terribly tangential. Don't let the "in your face" anti-religion header of the site discourage you from checking out the book that they are providing free access to. It was a book that was much shorter than a long one like "An Experiment in Christology", which I also own and never got around to reading.

The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity

I'll try looking into it. I think I can already outline much of the argument, since I've much of this so many times before.

Nevertheless, despite my misgivings, thanks for the link. :)
 

Hirsch63

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Perhaps I should say that I don't like seeing an entire segment of the population motivated for reasons that would disrupt the cost/benefit and risk measurements of a tangible problem, in this particular case.

Not all of us, despite the advances in communication have the ability or inclination to intellectually grasp the implications of scientific discoveries... myself included. In this respect the message that the scientist has and the message that a biblical text has share a common problem; representation and interpretation. Information is power.

Scientific proofs as you noted are (inherently) subject to revision. It is the very spirit of scientific discovery and ethic. Yet data will be used indiscriminently by any number of people or organizations to advance purely subjective points of view unto an (at least) disinterested public, more responsive to the studied manipulations of commerce.

Biblical text as a matter of it's very spirit and ethic must stand alone to be understood to the extent that it's hearers's intellect allows. When that text is manipulated in any form as it is passed down through the centuries it is compromised. Or when it is doled out selectively to those unable to interpret it, then becomes a tool of control and manipulation in the hands of those not worthy to hold it and their manipulations every bit as studied and developed through long practice as those of comtemporary commerce.

Control of information, the power to choose how others may see it is the most elemental power that there is. The only way to lessen the grasp of those who would distort is to disseminate as much information as possible to all. Much will fall on deaf ears. some will be inspired to read, then study then learn and gain some control for themselves. The outcome cannot be chosen, but having fewer people interested only serves the ends of those who would maintain hegemony.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, fear, fear of loss (of control) is the only reason to react so strongly to the subjective aesthetics of a biblical publication. Both theists and scientists have seen their works misused to the ends of bloody tyrants.
 

Anja

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I've read the Bible all my life. New Testament. There are many good ideas for living well in there.

Revisionism is interesting and not always in line with the original intentention.

Anything that helps people get in touch with how their spirituality is entertwined with the earthly gifts is fine with me.

My opinion is that the first religion is the more proper. So if the Christians want to find their way back it's all good.
 
S

Sniffles

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As I mentioned in my earlier post, fear, fear of loss (of control) is the only reason to react so strongly to the subjective aesthetics of a biblical publication.

And what control are these people afraid of losing?

This is not the Medieval period where the Church was the center of society, this isn't even the "Christendom" that Kierkegaard condemned in the 19th century. That system collasped in wake of WWII.

So I don't see how this is an issue of control.

I oppose this because it trivalises and degrades the message of Christ.
 

swordpath

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I'm against bending scripture/religion (which I don't even believe in anyway) to cater to someone's comforts. Denominations, various translations, its all dumb to me. Isn't Christianity supposed to be a man/god relationship?
 

Hirsch63

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I think Hirsch overreacted to my remark, which he sometimes does.

If my reaction to a suggestion that books should be burned (no matter how distasteful) or that (judged) heretics should be burned along with them reads as somthing like overreaction or indignation, well then I'm happy to be guilty. I am somewhat surprised that it seems unremarked by others here who's opinions I value.

If your statement was a jest, perhaps you could have modified it with a carefully selected emoticon? That way the shades of legions of tourtured and slain jews, christians, blacks, gypsies etc. as well as us living could look upon your remark and see that it was just a goof! The idea of informational power used to justify horrific ends goes well beyond the church of course, but that will never excuse the practice. For my part the wrongs of organized religion (and scientific enquiry for that matter) however profound can and should be weighed against many goods that also emanated from the same source. It is never all black and white, though I can fall into that trap as well as anyone.

I believe that we can all be better than we are using our gifts. I am encouraged to see this meaningful (I hope) discussion here in the forum...as usual Peguy you are capable of providing good grist for the mill. I feel that you are capable of a very great deal and would not see that potential led blinkered into a corner where it cannot be used to it's greatest advantage. I appreciate the respect that Peguy has advanced me this far. And I only care to respond because I have a similar regard for him.
 

Amargith

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You know I like you Peguy and I realize this is a sensitive subject to you, so I didn't react, but but I second Hirsches comment on your remark about the burning of heretics. I realize you were joking. But if I didn't know you, I'd steer clear of you for a while after a remark like that. For me, joking about burning heretics hits a sensitive nerve...
I love your passion and don't let me stiffle you, but do take on board the comments you get on what you sometimes say in the heat of the moment :hug:
 

Anja

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The history of the printed word is an economic history..... you actually think there's integrity? or supposed to be?

noseflubber said it. It's bound to happen. Probably have a lot of sparklies and a unicorn on the cover?

Somebody trying to bring sexy back to the Bible? Hee.

Peguy? He's The Iron Marshmallow. Yeah. I think he is. :cheese:

With a fine brain, besides.
 

ptgatsby

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As I mentioned in my earlier post, fear, fear of loss (of control) is the only reason to react so strongly to the subjective aesthetics of a biblical publication. Both theists and scientists have seen their works misused to the ends of bloody tyrants.

Those are good points. I have two seperate parts on why I don't like seeing it, but I'm not strongly against it... doesn't affect me deeply, it's just a negative indicator to the systems interacting.

The first is that it forces working from a pre-formed conclusion: climate change is bad. The prompt for the religious concern still comes from the same source, but now it isn't up for debate (within the systems, the debate changes). Under an empirical system, the purpose is to observe and predict, which means that this is not assumed. We determine what is the situation is as best we can and attempt to predict what the situation is likely to become. I believe this system should be protected in society, even if it conflicts with other issues. High scrutiny, but where it investigates, we improve... but what shouldn't happen is that we act in accordance or against it outside of what it discovers. It is a very powerful tool, but must be limit-bound by what it does well. Now, if we change systems to religion, all of a sudden, the system is built around what God said many years ago, and now we have compounded assumptions on how we should behave (God says this way and that climate change is real). In an ideal world, the two would work together - identify a problem and maybe a solution, plus provide the moral responsibility to carry it out. I wish I could say that this is what would happen, but I agree on your points too much... the opposite tends to happen - identify a problem and maybe a solution that doesn't really exist, then support it with moral guilt/cult following.

I see this as a manifestation of trying to support something empirical, under review, with religion. This removes the context to why the problem was even discovered. It is just as bad as having a negative belief pressure, such as if God said "exploit and burn the earth". Both sides work against the system that discover, refine and predict, though it just depends what side you are on in the climate debate (or the severity, which is very nebulous.)

The second reason is the one I sort-of described earlier... related to what I said above, but at a larger scale. I see religion as transient, like scientific discoveries. Once upon a time, knowledge and religion were bound up together. Religion is being pushed back to only those things that are not explainable otherwise. This is the evolution of humanity - religion as a proxy for morality and so forth. Once upon a time, it was a guide to throw stones and wipe out opposing tribes. Now it somehow preaches love and so forth, if you make enough selective choices, anyway. It evolves with society.

I use evolution here because it is a natural selection process. As ideas and concepts attempt to make their way into human society, they undergo tests - do they help that aspect of society, will people believe it, does it help groups stay together, etc. In this way, religion must evolve. Those that remain stagnant take up 'physical space' in society, meaning tangible ramifications of the belief system. Other systems that are more effective - including science, in terms of creationism and so forth, also take up space. Right now we are at a point where we simply ignore them, but if you work back through history, it's entirely possible for religion to both support and work against those advances. They aren't two seperate things, just different abstractions of systems.

Why do I connect these, you ask? There is collateral damage in the evolutionary process. Religion attaches itself to modern movements - those movements being the development of new mindsets that would develop into 'religions'... Instead, what I see is evolutionary systems destroying competitors. And it works both ways. Instead of climate change invoking overall social change, like through its own pseudo-religious environment, the other systems take advantage of it turn it into negative forms of their own systems. In science's cases, it's the whole 'publish or die', 'funding' and 'attention' aspects that are negative. And on the other side, you have what I think these things represent. Not an attempt to change religion, but to bring this item under religious jurisdiction. Just as science gains from the debate, as much as it would never admit it, so does religion gain from the faith-mindset. Not a particular "religion", but "religion" in and of itself (codified sets of beliefs).

To be clear, I'm abstracting all this from simpler behaviors. The reason it happens at all is because it is profitable to sell these items to people that are in the middle between religion and green. Good market segmentation, no doubt. I don't see it as some conspiracy, just the outcome of two abstract systems in a social context.
 

Eileen

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I'm against bending scripture/religion (which I don't even believe in anyway) to cater to someone's comforts. Denominations, various translations, its all dumb to me. Isn't Christianity supposed to be a man/god relationship?

Christianity is really about one's relationship to the world and especially to other Christians.
 

Nocapszy

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It's not really a matter of mere disagreement with people. I get along quite well here with people of various belief systems. Just last night I was chatting with alcea rosea, who's a skeptic. Then this past week or so I discussed privately with Amargrith about her pagan beliefs. Then me and Orangey are always bantering with each other about our differing perspectives. heart is a Gnostic. And the list goes on.

I'll even openly state that often I prefer the company of non-Christians over Christians.

I certainly respect peoples' right to their beliefs; but that doesn't mean I have to accept their beliefs as actually being right. And it certainly doesn't mean somebody has the right to disrespect my beliefs.
Spoken like a true christian.

And yet topics like this one -- this applies more often public, but it applies here so I'm bringing it up -- continue to pop up.
Sounds like some of us don't practice what we preach.


Because our Lord called upon us to love our enemies.
Spoken like a true christian.
 

Nocapszy

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Oh also, I hope you can read my posts all the way through in the future.

The end of my last post said:
And peguy, before you go flying off the handle at me like you have these magazines, hear this: I'm not just talking about you, and I'm not just talking about Christians.
 
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