Is MBTI a Cult?

[ajblaise]

Come on, man. Write us a BlueWing-style essay with arguments and evidence. Don't give us these one-liners with charged language. Give us something real. I think it's possible, and you are not delivering. And that makes this a very lame exercise indeed.

For this to happen he'd need to drop his whole act. I don't think he's willing to do that.

 

[Synarch]

And I can tell you there are no workshops on doubt and dissent. And skeptical inquiry is unknown.

How exactly do you give a workshop on doubt and dissent? Wouldn't any positive embrace of any topic be subject to your withering criticism as cultic? You can fetishize "doubt and dissent" just like anything else. Rejection of ideas is not synonymous with skepticism. You have yet to explain your initial claims.

It seems people hate learning for the same reason they hate exercise - so we become obese and dumb.

This sounds like the kind of unspecific scolding we would receive from a televangelist.

 

[Giggly]

And I know that cognitive dissonance is a sign I am learning something.

But so far, I don't know what it is.

What you will learn is that this is a place where people, in their boredom, blow their time away.

There is nothing else to be learned.

 

[ragashree]

You would receive a very different reception from here at any church in my hometown- you would probably get thrown angrilly into the street or physically harmed by people. Don't mess with a person's God- the MBTI is merely an intellectual toy or hobby There's a difference.

Good point, but I will say one thing in Victor's defense here since he doesn't seem to be making the distinction. The CAPT, who I think actually own the rights to MBTI, DO have more than a few cultish features from my limited knowledge of them - they certainly seem very secretive and over-protective of their system, as evinced by the recent site name change. I presume they were the cause of this, anyway. If you were arguing against THEM, Victor, I would agree with you rather more...

 

[Synarch]

Here's the thing:

We smuggle in our own subjective perceptions. If I want to see MBTI as a cult, I will marshal the evidence for this view. If I want to see it as a framework for understanding reality, I will see it this way. If I want to see it as a meaningless diversion, I will see it that way.

The compelling thing to me is that Victor carries in this somewhat pessimistic viewpoint that corresponds more directly to his psychological inclination than to any coherent argument, which is why he has failed to produce one. I will have to assume he has arrived at his views in a purely subjective way, based on the way he presented his claims.

 

[Mole]

What you will learn is that this is a place where people, in their boredom, blow their time away.

There is nothing else to be learned.

This is interesting for me, for although I do recognise others get bored, I can't say I have ever been bored.

If anything, I find life too exciting.

I remember a dear friend of mine telling me with some sarcasm that gee, you're life's exciting. But he was spot on. Every day is intensely exciting. Perhaps I have my thermostat set too high.

And I do love to explore things I don't quite understand. As a boy I would go exploring in the Bush with my pony Trixie. And today I love books that are just beyond my grasp.

I do though try and share my excitement. And I do have some success for short periods of time. But mostly people want to go back to boredom and emotional depression. I can only guess but perhaps boredom and emotional depression feel safe and familiar.

But I still like to go exploring on my pony, Trixie.

Would you like to climb up behind?

 

[ragashree]

Oh, this is interesting, I've looked the CAPT up, and they're based in Gainesville, Florida. I hadn't noticed them there. Very convenient, except that I'm not back there until next week. Maybe I could go for a stroll down the road and check them out... if anyone can offer me a compelling reason to bother, anyway.

 

[SillySapienne]

You never had a pony named Trixie, what a big fat liar.

You and your metaphor-whoring.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

A cult is characterised by a guru and followers. As distinct from a philosopher who needs no followers because he teaches us to think for ourselves.

Now Jesus Christ was guru of some note who deliberately sought followers. And so was a founder of cult.

Of course if I walked into a Methodist Church and told them they were a cult, I would get exactly the same response as I get here.

Because just as the Methodist Church is a cult, the New Age is a counter-cult.

And it is very plain that the Methodists do see the New Agers as fully fledged competitors.

The main issue here is a misuse of the word "cult". It may well be that you don't care for systems that have followers, but an actual cult is a distinct social dynamic from something like the Methodist church. Even if a cult uses the same dynamics taken to their extreme, there is still a notable difference. It is an exaggeration to suggest that people who belong to a social institution like a church do not ever think for themselves. The level of control is just not that high. Note the irony in your taking such an extreme position on this particular topic against a rejection of cultism which is defined by extremism.

 

[rhinosaur]

The main issue here is a misuse of the word "cult".

That was on my mind too, but I don't think it's the main issue.

I think the main issue is whether or not MBTI is contrived empirically. A system modeled after the patterns in the universe does not neccessarily contain the foundations of those patterns. In other words, if MBTI is contrived, it may fit the data, but it does not necessarily explain where the data come from.

Since no one seems to know what the biological or environmental basis for personality is, it is hard for me to believe that the cognitive processes -- Ti, Te, Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Fi, Fe -- are actually cognitive processes, as opposed to behavioral patterns. I think this is the trap that a lot of people fall into -- they end up thinking that the cognitive processes are locked-in fundamental modes of brain function, and the total personality is a linear combination of these processes. I don't think this is true.

 

[Nocapszy]

Victor,

What is new-age about typology?
Also what yeast bubbles the rise of your idea of MBTI as cult dogma?

Love,
-Nocapszy

P.S. Send me some of the drugs you do.
I'll pay the shipping cost as a parcel from across the globe will surely cost a great lot of money with oil prices as ludicrous as they are, and I would hate to put you in that kind of financial situation.

 

[Giggly]

I do though try and share my excitement. And I do have some success for short periods of time. But mostly people want to go back to boredom and emotional depression. I can only guess but perhaps boredom and emotional depression feel safe and familiar.

Patience is a virtue.

 

[Mole]

You never had a pony named Trixie, what a big fat liar.

You and your metaphor-whoring.

Yes, she was a piebald pony. Beautifully trained but highly strung with a mind of her own.

Most of all I liked to ride out into the hills where I hadn't been before. And just keep on riding, discovering all kinds of things until it was time to turn home. Trixie liked that moment and would head home immediately. And I was keen to get home as the sun was setting and my mother was preparing a delicious dinner.

Trixie was a well trained show pony and we would enter all the horse shows the and sometimes win a ribbon.

Trixie also like to jump which was very exciting.

And we played polo-cross which was great fun.

Sometimes I would go up the back to keep her company and she would put her head on my shoulder and go to sleep. And I can tell you even ponies have very heavy heads.

My dog, Blackie, was jealous of her and would show his complete contempt for her by lying between her legs and refusing to get out of the way.

And she was a very pretty pony. And, as you point out, a wonderful metaphor.

 

[Mole]

Note the irony in your taking such an extreme position on this particular topic against a rejection of cultism which is defined by extremism.

Well, you've got me there.

 

[Mole]

Victor,

What is new-age about typology?
Also what yeast bubbles the rise of your idea of MBTI as cult dogma?

Love,
-Nocapszy

P.S. Send me some of the drugs you do.
I'll pay the shipping cost as a parcel from across the globe will surely cost a great lot of money with oil prices as ludicrous as they are, and I would hate to put you in that kind of financial situation.

Well, I define a cult as a guru and their followers.

And it seems to me that Jung was a guru with many followers.

And Jung was the father of MBTI.

So MBTI is a cult.

And there is nothing new about the New Age. I reached its height in the first part of the 20th Century in Europe, particularly in the German world.

And Jung was right in the midst of it.

And sure, send me the money and I will send you concoctions that will drive you mad with spontaneous delight, throw you into transports of empathy and take you to the heights of creativity. And then throw you down in the Presence of the world's top celebrities.

What more could you ask for?

 

[Mole]

That was on my mind too, but I don't think it's the main issue.

I think the main issue is whether or not MBTI is contrived empirically. A system modeled after the patterns in the universe does not neccessarily contain the foundations of those patterns. In other words, if MBTI is contrived, it may fit the data, but it does not necessarily explain where the data come from.

Since no one seems to know what the biological or environmental basis for personality is, it is hard for me to believe that the cognitive processes -- Ti, Te, Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Fi, Fe -- are actually cognitive processes, as opposed to behavioral patterns. I think this is the trap that a lot of people fall into -- they end up thinking that the cognitive processes are locked-in fundamental modes of brain function, and the total personality is a linear combination of these processes. I don't think this is true.

It's interesting that of all human artifacts, personality and culture are the most stable.

 

[Llewellyn]

Well, I define a cult as a guru and their followers.

And it seems to me that Jung was a guru with many followers.

And Jung was the father of MBTI.

So MBTI is a cult.

And there is nothing new about the New Age. I reached its height in the first part of the 20th Century in Europe, particularly in the German world.

And Jung was right in the midst of it.

And sure, send me the money and I will send you concoctions that will drive you mad with spontaneous delight, throw you into transports of empathy and take you to the heights of creativity. And then throw you down in the Presence of the world's top celebrities.

What more could you ask for?

Jung did not set up MBTI. Those were Myers and Briggs. I doubt strongly that Jung has asked anyone to follow him. Btw, if he did, it would be a case for INFJ, if he didn't it would be a case for INTX.

What is your final point? Couldn't it be possible that people rationally choose to think about personality by using MBTI? It's another concept, and a strong one I think. And Jung was one of the more insightful persons. And don't think I admire (of 'follow') him now. You read books too, aren't they part of your own 'cult'? It's all about retaining personal freedom, one always has to remain a reserve in whcih one keeps a fresh look at things.

Edit: Yeah, now I really see your point. You want to urge people to do things beyond themselves. What if MBTI is such a thing for people? Subsequently, it remains a matter of personality if one will stick with that or keeps looking further.

 

[Nocapszy]

Well, I define a cult as a guru and their followers.

And it seems to me that Jung was a guru with many followers.

And Jung was the father of MBTI.

So MBTI is a cult.

Well then sure. The MBTI has a cult following.
But by this definition, a cult is not necessarily such a bad thing.

Don't worry ol' buddy. I agree with you. MBTI is horrendous.
We're just exercising our argumentative minds.

And there is nothing new about the New Age. I reached its height in the first part of the 20th Century in Europe, particularly in the German world.

And Jung was right in the midst of it.

And I've heard from a few sources he was.
Have you read his books? They're clean of political bias, from what I could tell.

And sure, send me the money and I will send you concoctions that will drive you mad with spontaneous delight, throw you into transports of empathy and take you to the heights of creativity. And then throw you down in the Presence of the world's top celebrities.

What more could you ask for?

Very little. Most of the time, we buy toys and video games to give us these things. A substance which gives it outright skips the middle man.

 

[booyalab]

Speak to any psychometrician with a doctorate from a recognised University, and ask why no qualified psychometricians use MBTI.

You might also ask about the proper use of a bona fide personality test. And I am sure you would be told it is not to be self administered. And certainly not administered by unqualified people to their friends. And of course it would be absurd to administer it to those you don't even know.

Yeah because who knows how many years of deep psychological damage may be wrought (on other people) when someone believes they're the wrong type!

 

[ragashree]

Yeah because who knows how many years of deep psychological damage may be wrought (on other people) when someone believes they're the wrong type!

It is of course deeply dangerous to partake of knowledge that may lead to greater self-understanding.

The story of Genesis is by no means a literal depiction of creation, but a metaphorical one. And we know how fond Victor is of metaphors. And we can presume by his style of posting that he has read the Holy Book more times than once.

And the story of Adam and Eve is the story of how Man's intellectual curiosity (let us not be politically correct here) led to his downfall.

For who ate of the forbidden fruit gained knowledge of good and evil, and became ashamed of themselves, seeing for the first time what potential was inside them.

And when Adam and Eve clothed their nekkidness, they were masking not only their physical bodies from the piercing sight of others, but their pure souls from the piercing gaze of the judgemental human intellect.

And the Fall was not only a fall from a primeval state of bliss, but a fall into the material world, and a state of bondage and thralldom.

And this thralldom is principally unto our own intellects, which create material demands that must be satisfied, and distance us from being free to simply experience what is.

Victor would like us to return to that state of primeval bliss, of simply being free to be, and is here to show us the way. Which is very naughty of him.

For the desire to know oneself is good, but the use of the false tools created by the perverted intellect of Man to achieve this, is Bad.

I, like Victor, am very naughty.