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Is MBTI a Cult?

Pionart

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We can make the same argument for phrenology, or astrology, or alchemy.

U WOT M8?!

haha

But since the 17th century we know better. And these superstitions are used today by business and religion to manipulate vulnerable people.

Science is used (misused) to manipulate vulnerable people into thinking that there is no such thing as the spiritual, but for thousands of years we have known better... but somehow now we don't, which is kinda weird really.

But the point is psychological typology. Is it true/scientifically valid? To a large extent, yes. It's more complicated than it's typically said to be, but yes. Yes it is.

:shrug:
 

antfmcmanz

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U WOT M8?! haha Science is used (misused) to manipulate vulnerable people into thinking that there is no such thing as the spiritual, but for thousands of years we have known better... but somehow now we don't, which is kinda weird really. But the point is psychological typology. Is it true/scientifically valid? To a large extent, yes. It's more complicated than it's typically said to be, but yes. Yes it is. :shrug:
.
How very New Age. You've just proved our point! There's a guy called David Icke who says the same, you should check him out. He also says that the world's ruled by psychopathic shape-shifting lizards.

I'd be interested to know who this 'we' is, because it doesn't include me, or anyone else in my immediate social circle, or anyone whose points I consider valid and genuinely interesting. So you're cherry picking here, badly.
 

Mole

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U WOT M8?! haha Science is used (misused) to manipulate vulnerable people into thinking that there is no such thing as the spiritual, but for thousands of years we have known better... but somehow now we don't, which is kinda weird really. But the point is psychological typology. Is it true/scientifically valid? To a large extent, yes. It's more complicated than it's typically said to be, but yes. Yes it is.

This is a misunderstanding of the word, 'typology'.

By contrast, Typology is the study of all types, not just personality types.

Typology does not mean the study of personality types.

The name, 'Typology', is used here to deceive vulnerable people for business reasons.

This is what we expect in a cult.
 

Pionart

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.
How very New Age. You've just proved our point! There's a guy called David Icke who says the same, you should check him out. He also says that the world's ruled by psychopathic shape-shifting lizards.

I'd be interested to know who this 'we' is, because it doesn't include me, or anyone else in my immediate social circle, or anyone whose points I consider valid and genuinely interesting. So you're cherry picking here, badly.

I don't know what point you're making. Are you saying that people generally do believe in the spiritual? And the denial of the spiritual in the name of science isn't a thing, or it's a lot more of a non-issue than I'm making out? Clarify please.

This is a misunderstanding of the word, 'typology'.

By contrast, Typology is the study of all types, not just personality types.

Typology does not mean the study of personality types.

The name, 'Typology', is used here to deceive vulnerable people for business reasons.

This is what we expect in a cult.

I even specified this time that I was talking about psychological typology, even though it's a given here that that's what the term refers to. Not sure what you're saying.
 

antfmcmanz

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Those who are anti-science are the ones you need to watch out for, pyramid schemes attract people who don't know or care about science and logic for a reason. As do crystal healers, homeopathy practitioners, and mediums. Some of them are now on the gravy train because 'spiritually-minded' people (i.e. people who can't discern between fact and fiction) all too readily buy into hokum.


Sorry, I misread what you said, but my point remains the same. Your use of 'we' is cherry picking because you're writing off at least half (likely much more) of the world's population. It's that simple. Of course, in a western context, many people are now atheists, but that's not true of everyone, and I'm concerned about humanity's future that it's come to the point where I need to explain this to you.
 

Mole

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I
I don't know what point you're making. Are you saying that people generally do believe in the spiritual? And the denial of the spiritual in the name of science isn't a thing, or it's a lot more of a non-issue than I'm making out? Clarify please. I even specified this time that I was talking about psychological typology, even though it's a given here that that's what the term refers to. Not sure what you're saying.
The spiritual is not the whole of science, the spiritual arises in our imagination, and forms the basis of religion, art, sculpture, ballet, literature, and architecture.

The spiritual forms the first part of science when we make an hypothesis. The second, and equally important part, is reality testing the hypothesis by experiment.

And mbti has not been reality tested in seventy five years.

This is what we expect in a cult, even a business cult.
 

Pionart

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The spiritual is not the whole of science, the spiritual arises in our imagination, and forms the basis of religion, art, sculpture, ballet, literature, and architecture.

The spiritual forms the first part of science when we make an hypothesis. The second, and equally important part, is reality testing the hypothesis by experiment.

Huh? It sounds like you're referring to the Intuition function. :huh:

(intuition is like the "spiritual" cognitive faculty, but actual spirituality is different)

|
V
I've attached a diagram spirit heart mind body.jpg
 

antfmcmanz

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Huh? It sounds like you're referring to the Intuition function. :huh: (intuition is like the "spiritual" cognitive faculty, but actual spirituality is different) | V I've attached a diagramView attachment 21137
I agree with you there, the development of hypotheses is sometimes based on an intuition (an unconscious observation), and not spirituality, which entails holding beliefs in entities or things that cannot be empirically validated (more often than not, though, hypotheses are conscious, empirical observations that require verification). Intuitions can, and are frequently, falsified, but can also be verified. Neither is true of spiritual claims.
 

antfmcmanz

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[MENTION=38602]antfmcmanz[/MENTION] you sound like a troll.
Why? For giving you credit when I agree with you, and disagreeing when I disagree? Some people are hard to please.
I don't think dedicating an hour of my day to writing a post on this thread is trolling, if I were, I'd have thrown the towel in ages ago. This is like Groundhog Day, 10 years ago Mole was being called a troll for saying uttering truths people didn't want to hear and now it's happening to me. In MBTI-land, I've come to believe, a 'troll' is anyone who criticises the system (that is, speaks sense). If someone breaches your subjective worldview, scream troll, and the back-ups will be sure to follow shortly.
 

Pionart

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Why? For giving you credit when I agree with you, and disagreeing when I disagree? Some people are hard to please.
I don't think dedicating an hour of my day to writing a post on this thread is trolling, if I were, I'd have thrown the towel in ages ago. This is like Groundhog Day, 10 years ago Mole was being called a troll for saying uttering truths people didn't want to hear and now it's happening to me. In MBTI-land, I've come to believe, a 'troll' is anyone who criticises the system (that is, speaks sense). If someone breaches your subjective worldview, scream troll, and the back-ups will be sure to follow shortly.

I accused you of being a troll because you keep arrogantly misrepresenting things. Maybe you're not but I lost interest in trying to have a civil discussion with you.
 

antfmcmanz

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Noting that your use of 'we', in reference to humanity losing touch with the spiritual in favour of science, is inappropriate and false, is a statement of fact. And your ignorance regarding this matter worries me as you don't strike me as a particularly unintelligent person. If that's trolling, then so be it, but it's coming from a place of genuine concern.
I criticise these things because of the detrimental effects they have on people, including yourself, who buy into the false notion that science (hence scientists) deliberately waged war on the spiritual to the effect that 'we' are now entirely divorced from the spiritual realm. If anything, the opposite is happening, belief in science is diminishing and more and more people are buying into New Age/Postmodern viewpoints that science has severed the ties to the spiritual realm/science is a tool of oppression. Both claims are patently false, and yet swathes of people are coming to believe it. So you're wrong on many levels here, I'm only making you aware of the facts.
 

Mole

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Noting that your use of 'we', in reference to humanity losing touch with the spiritual in favour of science, is inappropriate and false, is a statement of fact. And your ignorance regarding this matter worries me as you don't strike me as a particularly unintelligent person. If that's trolling, then so be it, but it's coming from a place of genuine concern.
I criticise these things because of the detrimental effects they have on people, including yourself, who buy into the false notion that science (hence scientists) deliberately waged war on the spiritual to the effect that 'we' are now entirely divorced from the spiritual realm. If anything, the opposite is happening, belief in science is diminishing and more and more people are buying into New Age/Postmodern viewpoints that science has severed the ties to the spiritual realm/science is a tool of oppression. Both claims are patently false, and yet swathes of people are coming to believe it. So you're wrong on many levels here, I'm only making you aware of the facts.


Yes, today 'spirituality' leaves religion behind and expands the spiritual to include all those activities we have engaged in since Ancient Greece. Spirituality, now New Age, and includes any imaginative activity not wanting or needing reality testing.
 

Mole

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Why? For giving you credit when I agree with you, and disagreeing when I disagree? Some people are hard to please.
I don't think dedicating an hour of my day to writing a post on this thread is trolling, if I were, I'd have thrown the towel in ages ago. This is like Groundhog Day, 10 years ago Mole was being called a troll for saying uttering truths people didn't want to hear and now it's happening to me. In MBTI-land, I've come to believe, a 'troll' is anyone who criticises the system (that is, speaks sense). If someone breaches your subjective worldview, scream troll, and the back-ups will be sure to follow shortly.

In our Parliament we are able to make points of personal explanation, so let me make a personal explanation. Yes, a very determined attempt was made to get rid of me by hacking my account and posing very offensive posts in my name. And I was permanently banned. After much effort, with help from my friend, I objected to my unfair dismissal. and the Administrator apologised to me personally and reinstated me.

The person or persons who hacked my account and defamed me have never apologised.
 

Pionart

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Just to reiterate what happened:

The user in question stated that they are

concerned about humanity's future

Because of my

use of 'we'

It sends me into a spin that there would be anything further to add here. Those are the criteria you claim to operate under? ...

And then there's the claim that:

Intuitions can, and are frequently, falsified, but can also be verified. Neither is true of spiritual claims.

Verifying a spiritual claim is a more complex process than verifying, say, a physics theorem. It requires a higher level of thought.

Maybe you can't think on that sort of level, but that's a failing on your part, not spirituality's.

--

Oh, and for the record, I have no involvement with the "New Age". I don't know what beliefs fall under New Age.

But there's something weird going on here where mentions of spirituality are deflected into "New Age" territory.

--

Oh, and I didn't say I was against science, I said I was against the misuse of science. And if criticising the misuse of science is unacceptable, you're placing science in the position of "not open to criticism" which is rather... ahem... unscientific.
 

antfmcmanz

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In our Parliament we are able to make points of personal explanation, so let me make a personal explanation. Yes, a very determined attempt was made to get rid of me by hacking my account and posing very offensive posts in my name. And I was permanently banned. After much effort, with help from my friend, I objected to my unfair dismissal. and the Administrator apologised to me personally and reinstated me. The person or persons who hacked my account and defamed me have never apologised.

I know how you feel. The problem is that when somebody learns that they're 'an' anything, and that 'an' is dependent on the validity of a system (such as the MBTI), it's only natural for them to perceive that as an attack on themselves and take it out on the bearer of bad news. This sort of thing isn't only exclusive to MBTI now, it's the culture we live and breathe. It happens when people's subjective experiences are elevated to the status of truth, just add a bit of narcissism into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster. Now it's like water off a duck's back, but when I just started getting into the MBTI I found the climate disturbing but was too wrapped up in my identity to pull myself away from it, despite being in an environment where my identity was being constantly questioned. I ended up quite ill. But now I see it for what it is, hokum, and the evidence for it is becoming painfully apparent this evening/afternoon/morning. It's pretty hard not to take a blasé approach, or come off as aloof or arrogant, when the environment is so oppressive.
 

antfmcmanz

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@Legion

I began this conversation with you with a question: who is this 'we' you speak of? You didn't provide an answer to that question, so I assumed you meant humanity, and it's not the case that 'we' have abandoned spirituality for science, quite the reverse. To be slightly more uncharitable, I could suggest that you meant the US (you use American English so I assume that's the case), but that, again, would be sheer ignorance on your part. If I'm being extremely uncharitable, I could flirt with the idea that you don't understand the difference between collective and singular pronouns, but I don't believe that, so I have to assume that your reference to the collective was purposeful, and had a meaning, which you're now denying. That's called gaslighting.

The claim I took issue with was your claim that the pre-science days were in some sense superior: 'we knew better, and that science is misused to manipulate vulnerable people into thinking there's no such thing as the spiritual', that claim is false -- the scientific method is incapable of telling us whether spirituality is true or false, as atheists, religious people, spiritualists, and philosophers do that; science has never been concerned with proving or disproving the spiritual, it's impossible for it to be used in that manner. The romanticist claim that 'things were better in the old days', we had access to different kinds of knowledge, higher level knowledge, back then, is commonly spouted by New Agers. David Icke, who I referenced, adheres to that (false) perspective, among other prominent New Age gurus.

It's true that science is often used wrongly, I never denied that, but you cannot deny that you were suggesting that since science came about we've been rolling backwards, that's ludicrous. The thing is, the New Age is a societal contagion so most New Agers don't even realise that their beliefs stem from that line of thought. But having seen your claim that discovering your 'spiritual' side is harder than verifying a physics theorem, it is with a heavy heart that I retract any positive comments I previously made. I'm quite cosy here in reality thank you.
 

Mole

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In the maelstrom of the USA two things stand out - they are faith and business.

The President said, the business of America is business, based on Protestantism and the Work Ethic.

So a business cult is normal in the USA, and mbti is taken for granted.
 

antfmcmanz

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If that's a response to my last post, what I was saying is that some Americans (unfortunately a large number of them) believe that there's nothing outside the US so it's sometimes automatically assumed on forums that every competent English speaker is therefore American. Thus, every reference to the collective is shorthand for 'Americans' instead of 'humanity'. Disaster movies are great for observing that attitude at work.

But yeah, I've noticed that aspect of American culture too. It's bittersweet Sartrean irony that those who profess to be the freest are, in fact, those who fear freedom the most....
 
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