User Tag List

12311 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 135

  1. #1
    Kawaii Red Memories's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    MBTI
    xxFP
    Enneagram
    12x sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    5,851

    Default Let's talk the dislike of religion and spirituality.

    I pose a few questions for you.

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?

    9. Do you believe that another person's religiousness impacts their of quality of character?

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)

    (I rephrased question #9 from @Merced suggestion. Thank you !)
    Last edited by Red Memories; 11-12-2020 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Thank you Merced
    Likes RadicalDoubt liked this post

  2. #2
    Senior Member Earl Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    927 sp/sx
    Posts
    4,789

    Default

    @Red Memories can you define what you mean by spirituality here?
    浮世は刹那

    long forgotten sleep

  3. #3
    Kawaii Red Memories's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    MBTI
    xxFP
    Enneagram
    12x sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    5,851

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    @Red Memories can you define what you mean by spirituality here?
    I define spirituality as a belief in a realm beyond our understanding i.e. spirits, ghosts, etc can be deemed as spiritual things to me. Spirituality can also refer to a belief in any sort of higher power or entity forming anything, or angels, etc.

    Religion I define as an organized set of doctrines which define your belief system.
    Wanna comment on me? My windows:
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=JazzyOrchid
    http://kevan.org/jh/jazzyorchid
    Likes Aerix liked this post

  4. #4
    Senior Member Earl Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    927 sp/sx
    Posts
    4,789

    Default

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?
    I don't think I've ever come across any religion that I just outright disliked. There are denominations I dislike, but not the religion as a whole. When I say "I dislike religion," I really mean I dislike the indoctrination and religious structure, no matter how positive it is.

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.
    Slighty. For the most part I'm neutral, but initially, I had distanced myself from it due to dislike borne from negative experiences (no, nothing happened to me personally, I just didn't like what I saw in the system). Too many people in religious settings are hypocrites, or are trying too hard. There are fraudsters, "But technically, this [negative action] isn't a sin, so it's fine,"- it's the spiritual equivalent of finding loopholes in the legal system so you could get away with reprehensible acts. It's two-faced, slimy, and I couldn't condone it.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?
    Both. 'Belief' / 'believing' just doesn't compute with me.

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?
    Not necessarily, but both carry different connotations for me. For the most part folks who say they are 'not religious but spiritual' follow some kind other belief system or structure, no matter how esoteric (eg; their own idea of god or heaven, say). To me, the main idea behind it is the same still: a structured belief system based off only faith, so they are religious in another way.

    When I think about 'spiritualism', I picture someone who doesn't necessarily believe in god, but live guided by their intuition that functions as a sort of moral compass and a guiding light through life. Their actions and motivations seem fueled by the belief that there is something beyond what can be experienced with the five senses- anything from ghosts to a belief in fate, purpose, and meaning. It's more malleable and varied than religion that hands you what to believe and follow on a silver platter.

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?
    I don't see why I should. People already believe and have faith in all sorts of things, and religion is just a form of faith.

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?
    To each their own. Some derive power and comfort from it.

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?
    Conceptually, perhaps, just like how anyone can rationally discuss moral systems. There's no arguing facts in religion, however- it's just not logical nor are they based on facts. You don't have to be logical to be reasonable, however, and that in itself is a form of rationality- if you asked me, I'd tell you to just do whatever works for you- whatever prayer, whatever ritual, whatever diet- whatever it is. People who do follow religion do it because it works for them. Good results can't be argued with.

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consider this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?
    It depends on how they do it. Generally, I do see it as weak, but I don't judge where people get their daily bread from. As the above, the fact that it works for them is all that matters. I try to understand that there is merit in people making use of the resources available to them that works for them, and I in turn respect those who can respect my lifestyle (and not get in my face telling to do / not do XYZ lest I burn in whatever circle of whatever hell).

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)
    Non-religious.
    浮世は刹那

    long forgotten sleep
    Likes Red Memories, Lord Lavender liked this post

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    29,199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Memories View Post
    I pose a few questions for you.

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?
    It is difficult to generalize.

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.
    It is and it isnt, I have experienced sectarianism, fundamentalism etc. although I have experienced it from ideologues too.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?
    I do not think that organized religion is untrue. I do not believe that unorganized religion is any better than organized religion for lacking organization.

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?
    They mean the same thing to me, it is a false dichotomy.

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?
    I dont believe that is possible, not religion as I understand it but if it where I would not.

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?
    It can be, it depends on many variables. It is difficult to generalize. It also means what is meant by belief. Does it mean affirm the existence or does it mean to hope, trust or have confidence in/expectations of?

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?
    Yes. Or philosophy.

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consder this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?
    No.

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, as I understand it.
    Likes Red Memories liked this post

  6. #6
    Kawaii Red Memories's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    MBTI
    xxFP
    Enneagram
    12x sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    5,851

    Default

    okay I shall answer my own questions as well

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?: I do not really dislike spiritual belief as a whole. I do dislike anyone who tries to forcibly indoctrinate me to anything, so I tend to dislike the way some religions or churches work in that right.

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.: Somewhat yes. I have always been a Christian, but some of the most harsh and judgmental people I've ever known call themselves Christians as well.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?: I think I dislike organized religion moreso than true belief. Belief is something you search for and find. Organized religion is often flawed and can become abusive in its own way.

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?: Yes. I think there are many "religious" people who follow their church to a T without really having a relationship with their god, which makes them more religious than spiritual. A spiritual person may be more inclined to question the authority telling them how to translate their belief. They can go together though.

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?: No. I do not feel religious belief in essence harms anyone.

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?: No. It can be a sign of hope for many people who struggle. I think the way some people translate and abuse religious philosophy IS damaging though.

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?: Yes. But we have to put our egos aside.

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consder this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?: I don't find them inferior but I struggle to fathom that someone thinks our very complex universe came by random chance. But as I have heard more, I realize most atheists are more agnostic in nature - per say, they don't have enough evidence to say. Or know.

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.): I am a non-denominational Christian. I was baptized as a Catholic but I've moreless left the Church.

  7. #7
    Saturn's Amethyst
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    6,290

    Default

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

    I just don't like organized religion in general they can become too mired in social comfrimity and rules and regulations and stuff like they will be like *NUH YOU CANT WORSHIP THAT WAY YOU WILL BURN AND BE SMITED* and the poor deity is probably laughing at the mess . Its like im sure God wouldn't mind sharing space with Loki and Zeus.

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.
    No nasty personal experiences or traumatic backstories relating to religion here

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?
    Organized religion I dislike. It feels forced and a tool of social control but meh it has benefits like unity and cohesiveness and as anyone who has played a rts game having higher morale and everyone on tbe same page is a big benefit. The thing is sometimes religions like can become like anime fan clubs and get into petty wars over silly stuff like to me me freaking battle over whether priests were human or not felt like a anime shipping war that got out of hand he he he he he . Oooooh I wonder if the pathenons are laughing at us like the Indo European gods and Ambramic God (Who seems to love giving his followers different rules, seriously only allowing the Christian brance to eat pork now thats cruel come on no bacon but then pigs are smart animals so kindness ).

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?
    I see them as different things spiritually feels more hmmm personal like to me religious means you subscribe to a official code of sorts while spiritual is like ghosts,life force,aura and all that. The two exist separately like you can be neither,one or both. E.g a non spiritual Chriatian for example would be into scripture but they wouldn't care about the paranormal,the abstraction behind the actual scripture.

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?
    I would not at allllll . Religions bring a lot of richness and enrich our lives and culture and without relgion life would be a teeny bit more boring like no fun gods like thereed be no Percy Jackson books or anything. Plus despite what athetistic edgelords say religion has not imo regressed humanity at all in fact the church in the Middle Ages preserved a lot of knowledge. To deprive humanity of rich stories and myths and expiernces is to commit a great crime in my book.

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?
    I'm going to say no. Some people benefit from that sorta thing.

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?
    Why couldn't they?. Provided everyone at the discussion is mature,open minded and hasn't come to grind a axe I see no reason a rational debate could take place

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consider this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?
    As a believer of gods (I don't worship any nor pray but would be open to opening a connection with a god that I felt connected too) I don't deem them inferior. Well I might look down on them if they are narrow minded or dogmatic but that's because they are dogmatic pricks not because they are religious ya know.

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)
    Non religious but very spiritual like I'm into Zodaic and ghosts and the gods existing. I just don't mesh with churchy places.

  8. #8
    heartland values Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    14,811

    Default

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

    I mostly really just dislike forms of Protestant evangelism that place a lot of emphasis on belief and being part of the "tribe" while considering actual actions unimportant because "true believers are always forgiven."

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.

    I don't care for people wasting my time to convert me. Yes, I am aware of Jesus.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?

    I'm not even sure I dislike either.

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?

    I'm not really sure what people mean by drawing a distinction except for the fact that spirituality is often seems to be used to refer to New Age practices while religion refers to Christianity.

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?

    No. People would just find other things to fight about. Religion doesn't cause people to be assholes; people are assholes for other reasons. Usually the religion is just the tool they use to justify them being assholes. But people can find other ways to do so.

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?

    No, because it can sometimes give people motivation to move forward. I think it can provide a motivation to try and be a better person.

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?

    No idea.

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consder this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?

    No.

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)[

    I'm a lefty Jew who doesn't follow dietary laws but attends High Holy days services and celebrates Passover in addition to Christmas because I'm the product of a mixed marriage.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi


    Likes Red Memories liked this post

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    45,381

    Default

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

    I dislike how some are practiced. I am okay with religions in general when they are simply used for an individual to find their own way forward in life. Some people appreciate a structure to follow. Consider that we are all human beings but we have individual personalities. Religion frameworks are similar -- a person will have their personal framework to view the world through, and it's just a "flavor" rather than an oppressive hierarchy trying to dominate and eradicate other personalities.

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.

    I have known some good people with spiritual or religious beliefs (well, I still know them!) I also know people from religious backgrounds/practices who i feel the practice is harmful to themselves or others... or at least has locked them in a non-evolving grip.

    This is based on my 35-40 years in organized religion (protestant and/or evangelical, western practices), sometimes in leadership positions while feeling at disadvantage when I would have liked to be more vocal.

    I definitely have had some awful and truly painful experiences dealing with dogmatic voices in my life, and it resulted once in me losing my entire support group in life. Sometimes I still get angry when I remember these experiences, but I don't blame the values and ideas necessarily, I just see those particular structures as bad and people being weak.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?

    I have reached a place where I am pretty such there is no god(s), although I'm not 100% sure, and I still also have embraced particular moral virtues. I do not have a problem with people who do believe there are god(s). I find unbearable, however, religions that demean or dismiss other reasonable beliefs, and/or that seek to implement their specific doctrines in political law to override others with different religious beliefs. Such people cannot be reasoned with and they are not interested in understanding other views because they have already decided they are wrong and even "evil" -- hence, they're like a cancer that eats up everything around it, the healthy and unhealthy alike... and typically the cancer itself ends up being the most unhealthy of all.

    (Look at all these religious leaders in western religious faiths and how power and money inevitably corrupt them all.)

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?

    Religion is the structure, while spirituality is more like the principles.

    So sure. Someone can think they are "good" because they promote a particular exacting "structure" for people to follow, but structures can be abused. The structure is also more of an extraverted construct, a list of external rules and practices to follow.

    Spirituality is more about the internalized principles a person uses as their guidance. What they value, what they live and die for, what they will follow regardless of what happens in life.

    Compare them to Fe and Te (religion), versus Fi and Ti (spirituality).

    I don't think religion is necessarily bad. It is just an explicable structure that can be wielded to crush people who do not conform.

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?

    How could religion ever be banned? Every human society has had religion. It just happens. I just don't think religion should dominate a political process, where people must come together for consensus; it tends to be less reasonable if it is the dominating factor and refuses to consider the needs of all the people by its nature.

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?
    Not necessarily. It can provide a light in the darkness for someone to follow, encouragement to continue, and so forth. If it works for you, great. it personally no longer works for me because I see the world a certain way, and so a lot of that feels like a lie -- regardless of whether someone else believes in one. But I don't begrudge them this. For me, it just isn't something I can do anymore.

    It hurts sometimes to talk to my mother, who very much still follows the religious beliefs of her youth even into her 70's. I value her in the sense she is sincere and that she is more loving than judgmental -- and she has changed her views on some specific things over time, against the grain of others in her church, out of love. But it still hurts when she talks about heaven; I know she is scared I won't be there because she loves me; but at the same time, i can't follow her ways and beliefs. And i think sometimes in life it has led her into persisting with things that were not good for her (like staying with my father for so many years).

    I think religion COULD be damaging if someone relies entirely on a power without taking personal responsibility.

    One of the things that happened for me when I left conventional religion behind and no longer was sure about God -- I might not be sure about God, but I still believe in the principles that I had formerly credited to God, I realized those values were STILL mine, and even if there was no "God" to embody them, it was my responsibility to embody them. IOW, even if god doesn't exist, embody that concept of god in one's own life. Without a god, it was even more imperative I had to take responsibility.

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?
    Yes. Look at Jewish rabbis and the non-dogmatic faiths. Sometimes they value multiple interpretations of the same scripture, and consider them all accurate or useful.

    This was a huge eye-opener to me as I was leaving evangelicalism. I was used to there only being ONE ANSWER or ONE INTERPRETATION and if you didn't have it, you were WRONG and were not following God. And the whole goal was to make sure your doctrine was exactly right because otherwise you were a bad witness and even bad person. And of course, then, if you know the RIGHT answer, you have no choice but to tell everyone else how they are wrong, if you care about your faith and want to do RIGHT.

    Anyway, theology that is not based on hubris is open to new ideas or views and can discuss them. Dogmatism cannot and typically leaves any discussion platform in ruins. We see this all the time on online forums, but it's also part of real-life engagements. Dogmatism is TERRIFIED of religions that have flex in them; they need to maintain their certainty.

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consder this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?

    No. I mean, I am human, and sometimes I can get frustrated... but I don't consider people with spiritual beliefs and values, or even people who have chosen a particular faith to express themselves through, to be inferior.

    However, I think some people (regardless of religion belief) can be immature in how they are not willing to listen to other viewpoints and approach them reasonably, and if they have enough hubris to not just insist they are right in everything but also seek to impose it on others.

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)

    I already addressed this above a bit.

    I was raised in Western Christianity and had some evangelical, non-denomination, and even pentecostal-style bits woven into me, but was always challenging them and at some point I could not longer persist. It was a painful experience growing and changing out of it -- first you struggle with believing you are falling away because the truth you are growing to see no longer conforms; then you change enough that you have more confidence in your changes but deal with the external judgments of others who see you as heretical; then you leave that community (probably) and grow into yourself more.

    I stopped going to Christian church in 2010 -- either I found it unhelpful or I found it oppressive. (I think I last went to a Christmas Eve service in my old-style faith 8-9 years back, and my skin was just crawling the whole time, and I just haven't been able to go back. It was like religious PTSD for me.)

    I kind of lie in the gray area now of atheistic existentialism vs absurdity. I believe meaning exists but it is chosen by the individual. I also believe that death is probably the end for each one of us. (I don't mean to depress anyone. I just don't see evidence of life after death, nor can much of it even exist.) I don't know these things 100%, they are just my inclinations after 50+ years of living and constantly experiencing and thinking about these things. If someone still does believe those things, it's okay by me; I just cannot accept it at this stage of my life.

    This makes me sad in some ways. I hate the way religious people would say leaving the faith is "waving your fist in God's face." No, not for me at least. I know I was faithful and true for as long as I could have been, and then I had to be faithful and true to what I was seeing to be true. (Weirdly, if a god exists, I feel that this god would be proud of me because my process has been honest and sincere and merely a result of being a fallible human without full knowledge of the universe.)

    I recounted this experience here a long time ago in a now-removed blog, but I had this dream one night in 2008 where I was walking through my house looking for god, as if he were my husband or a lover. We had been together for such a long time. Now I had awoken and I could still smell his scent and feel his presence lingering, but he had gently taken his things and left, for whatever reason.

    I was not angry with him and did not blame him. I just felt like we had been together for the allotted time and now he needed to go, and it was up to me to carry on. I felt sadness and loneliness on some level because that time was now over -- kind of like the death of a loved one. They are gone, but you don't forget them, you think of them fondly, you miss them, and the way they changed your life will always stick with you. In a way, they are always with you even when they are gone. In a way, "god" had gotten inside of me and stopped being an external being. But it still hurt / saddened me, it was like walking through an empty house looking for your love and not finding them even while you can still sense them having been there.

    Anyway... that's where I currently am. I am committed to just being authentic. If my life takes me me into a different awareness, my beliefs could change. I don't feel like my core values ever did. it's just that now they are my values, not my religion's values.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
    Likes Red Memories liked this post

  10. #10
    gothic elf MovinOut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Enneagram
    461 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    2,389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Memories View Post
    I pose a few questions for you.

    1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

    2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.

    3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?

    4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?

    5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?

    6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?

    8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?

    9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consder this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?

    10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)
    Where's question 7?
    And I've been a hero, helpless, I'm in hell...

    silent all these years: my personal blog

    vote on my type

    Johari / Nohari

Similar Threads

  1. The psychology of forum and online dynamics
    By Geoff in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 119
    Last Post: 09-04-2015, 05:45 PM
  2. [JCF] Let's talk about how Te, Ni, and Se manifest in the ENTJ
    By The Great One in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-19-2013, 05:42 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO