Let's talk the dislike of religion and spirituality.

[Lark]

I think if people adopted this approach, things would be far better here. Keep it to yourself, keep it out of my secular government. This is not difficult to grasp.

I would like to see religious entitles removed from health care as well they get the double advantage of tax exemption and being the only choice for care in so many places. I see all kind of political signs on church property now and that's fine if they want to get in the game. They can lose their tax exempt status too, just like all other non-profit political entities, if that's the train they want to get on.

I consider myself to be very religious and I totally approve of this idea.

Religion should really be a matter of private conscience, I also agree, very strongly, that political messaging should result in losing tax exempt status.

I've never been sure about tax exempt status, unless it is demonstrable that the church in question is making the government a saving by providing functions to its congregation which it would otherwise be the responsibility of the state to provide. This is because I believe in the principle of subsidiarity, welfare pluralism, pluralism per se and I'm not a fan of monopoly supply and control. So in theory I would not be opposed to LGBT groups receiving the same status if they could demonstrate their own status as welfare organizations rather than political activists.

 

[Merced]

I pose a few questions for you.

1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?

2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.

3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?

4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?

5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?

6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?

8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?

9. Do you see religious (for religious people, consder this for non-religious people) as inferior to you?

10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)

1) Spirituality is totally fine. But religion I have a very specific stance on. I think religion is a strictly personal, subjective thing. If your religion involves other people, I don't like it. If your religion necessitates things or events like church, it's not good. Religion is between you and God(s). That's it. Outside influence is automatically suspect to me.

2) Yes, but I am not willing to share further than that.

3) Organized religion.

4) Yes, they are different but if you are doing them both right, they become synonymous in action.

5) Scientology because it is a literal scam designed to be a scam.

6) Nope. Do you, boo.

7) Nope. There is no way to rationally discuss something so deeply subjective.

8) What? No. This is a leading question.

9) I guess? It's personal, which is how I view religion and spirituality to begin with.

 

[Red Memories]

1) Spirituality is totally fine. But religion I have a very specific stance on. I think religion is a strictly personal, subjective thing. If your religion involves other people, I don't like it. If your religion necessitates things or events like church, it's not good. Religion is between you and God(s). That's it. Outside influence is automatically suspect to me.

2) Yes, but I am not willing to share further than that.

3) Organized religion.

4) Yes, they are different but if you are doing them both right, they become synonymous in action.

5) Scientology because it is a literal scam designed to be a scam.

6) Nope. Do you, boo.

7) Nope. There is no way to rationally discuss something so deeply subjective.

8) What? No. This is a leading question.

9) I guess? It's personal, which is how I view religion and spirituality to begin with.

If you have a better way to phrase that question it's fair. I think my focus to that is how some religious or nonreligious people act as if they are automatically superior to another in thought logic or etc. Due to their spirituality or lack of it. If that makes sense. I was asking if this person feels that way and why so.

 

[Merced]

If you have a better way to phrase that question it's fair. I think my focus to that is how some religious or nonreligious people act as if they are automatically superior to another in thought logic or etc. Due to their spirituality or lack of it. If that makes sense. I was asking if this person feels that way and why so.

"Do you believe that another person's religiousness impacts their of quality of character?"

That way it's a little more even handed and isn't "us/them", while still asking how you judge the other person.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I'll try to come back and answer your questions specifically. I never argue with people in my life about their religion and tend to be supportive of it, but I have deep concerns about the notion of religion. As a positive, it creates a sense of community and I notice several groups that will help each other out during difficult times based primarily on their shared identity.

After everything I've seen recently with the distorted perceptions shared en masse', I feel concerns about any group of human sharing non-verifiable constructs of reality and obeying a figure head as a source of truth. Whether this process produces benign or harmful results, it is a volatile dynamic that can turn towards highly destructive outcomes.

Humans need an external reference to modify behaviors and perceptions. Science provides that external feedback allowing a negotiation between internal perception and externally measured reality. When there is no external wall to bounce the ball off of, so to speak, outcomes are unmoderated. Social validation of ideas replaces objective measurements. In no instance have I witnessed this so blatantly as with this global pandemic. There is an external, objective reality we are beholden to and no amount of shared imaginings can change its outcome.

There is a reason religion has evolved along with humans and I think facilitating group survival through shared identity is primary to this, but I still find it concerning.

 

[indra]

The one two punch of the world as will and representation/on the origin of species should have knocked humanity on its ass, alas!

 

[Tilt]

It just never resonated with me and made me feel horrible that there was always a disconnect. When I found out that it was ok to not be religious, it felt incredibly freeing.

I don't mind religion as long as I don't hear about it regularly in conversations.

I have had it insinuated that I don't like religion because of my trauma background by the biggest religious hypocrite I have ever encountered (constantly lied and stole from people).

 

[Lark]

There are things I dislike a lot more than religion, a lot of them pose as alternatives to religion or irreligious, for some reason, but they resemble bad religion.

I also dont like unorganized religion too, more than I do organized religion.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I'll post more later, but for now, a random thought: my brother was always presumptuous, saying that people who turn to religion are weak. The error in his assessment was, as I frequently find myself complaining about others who fail to think of multiple possibilities: TOO LINEAR. People don't turn to religion for the same reason 100% of the time, and for many it takes a great deal of strength to hold on and keep walking that path in life; in other words, there are many reasons people believe and there is more than one way that strength manifests. Strength is not this black and white, you have it or you don't, all or nothing thing: you can have weakness in some areas but a great deal of strength in others, and it's closed-minded and void of understanding to say a person is weak for being religious. Oversimplification, overgeneralization. When it comes to masses of people, scarcely is anything linear, if ever. People know not what it's like to "sell everything but that precious pearl" as the Bible phrases it. There are those who believe and go through kinds of hell that would make many who call themselves strong stumble and fall, just to stay true to their beliefs.

 

[violet_crown]

Religion to me implies an organization of individuals, rather than the direct experience of one’s own spirituality. I think there is something valuable about the way religion can translate spiritual experience into a more mundane experience. I distrust religions as political institutions. There’s something dishonest in replacing the experience of god with a group of people. I square this in my own practices by participating in the rituals of my religion, but not really engaging within its community. I have my own spiritual practice that’s grounded in the Catholic faith, but syncretizes other types of truths. It’s something along the lines of what Lewis arrived at.

 

[indra]

The idea of a soul is rooted in humanity’s proclivity toward essentialism and is owed by our race’s early primacy. The trove of collective knowledge has permitted an understanding well beyond that primacy and we now know our species exists within a chain of the universe, wrought by its processes a billion times in millions of ways.

The deepest spirituality then is to know this universe. This seems to be in habitual direct conflict with your garden variety spiritualist.

 

[theablekingedgar]

it's just opinions.

people who hate those who hate religion, fuck you. lol.
it's a BELIEF. get over it!

 

[Kasper]

1. When you say you dislike religion or spirituality, do you dislike them all or do you dislike a few?
All to varying levels, the less a person's beliefs infringes on the lives of others around them the less I care about it. Want to believe a fairy king lives in your garden so need to look after the space? Go for it. Believe that using birth control is a more grievous sin than stopping the spread of HIV? You are causing damage and should not be in a position of that can create public policy. Believe that apostates should be killed? You need to be stopped. Keep it in your places of worship and homes and don't push it on others and I have no issues whatever your faith is. Unfortunately, that's generally not how religions work, some are just more harmless than others.

2. Is your dislike correlated to experiences? You are allowed to share if you so are willing.
To a point, seeing hypocrisy up close does leave a bad taste, but it's mostly based on free thought as an adult undoing the indoctrination that I was born into. Belief in the supernatural is illogical to me, even more so for the religions on offer and all their inherent contradictions. Religion is divisive, a reason to hate or harm, makes claims that in any other context people could call delusions and too often seeks to push subjective morals onto others as if they were some kind of objective universal rule. If you choose to only see the good in religion you're ignoring things that should not be ignored, if you choose to place all the 'bad' on the human nature of a religions followers, then how righteous is your religion in the first place.

3. Do you dislike true belief or do you merely dislike organized religion?
I dislike using the supernatural to explain things we do not (yet) understand, so both. But the insidiousness of things like systematic rape of children and subsequent covering up of crimes, or killing those who follow the wrong strand of your religion is inherently worse than someone who chooses to strongly believe the earth was created in 7 days a few thousands of years ago even though the latter can lead to poor education and policy outcomes.

4. Do you distinguish religion and spirituality as two different things? i.e. can someone be religious but not very spiritual or spiritual but not very religious?
I view spirituality as your own individual beliefs weather they are specifically religious or not while religion is an organisation that places a higher power aloft. I support the right for individuals to be able to safely follow their own beliefs up until the point it infringes on another's. I do not support the concept that religions (and other ideologies) should be free from criticism or ridicule. Individuals deserve human rights, organisations/ideologies do not.

5. If you could ban religious belief, would you? Why or why not?
Rid the world of, yes, ban without removing the actual belief, no, I'd rather encourage critical thinking. Religion causes unnecessary divides and personally I see it as a hinderance to discovery. The issue is strong ideologies, religion just tends to be one that you're supposed to 'respect' regardless of how illogical you think it is. I put things like fascism and communism into this more harmful for humanity than not category as well it's just much more okay for most to criticise political ideologies (depending on the country you're in in some cases).

6. Do you think a belief in a higher power is damaging? Why or why not?
Not sure I'd say that, I mostly view it as a comfortable answer to death, but the more fervent the believer, the more locked in the 'answers' are. If you 'know' how the universe came to be, what encouragement is there to seek scientific discovery or challenge your preconceptions? I find that sad, things are so much bigger and more amazing than religion tries to contain us within.

I do consider religion as more damaging than not though, especially those who hold believe that there is an end of days looming and what comes after is better than what we currently have. It's one of the main reasons I believe there is still denial of the catastrophic environmental impact we've had on our climate; "let go and let God" climate change can't be real if there is a deity in control of everything and the end of days will make everything better.

8. Do you think people can rationally discuss theological matters?
Don't need to think, it does happen. Strong belief doesn't need to mean you cannot articulate your point of view and counter another's disagreement. It's just not the norm. I enjoy it when it does happen though.

9. Do you believe that another person's religiousness impacts their of quality of character?
No.

10. Are you yourself religious/spiritual/non-religious/etc? (you're welcome to be as specific as you'd like.)
Humanist, atheist.

 

[Mind Maverick]

it's just opinions.

it's a BELIEF.

So was racism against black people when they were slaves.
So was what Hitler taught people when Jews were massacred.
So are some terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, etc.
So were the words of certain leaders.
So is what gets religious people murdered.
So are the reasons the USA has been so divided and bordering on civil war recently.
So is what people think after being gaslit.

You speak as though beliefs are harmless, yet they are often very far from it.



Beliefs conceive words and actions. Sometimes some beliefs are weapons, therefore.

 

[Tilt]

So was racism against black people when they were slaves.
So was what Hitler taught people when Jews were massacred.
So are some terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, etc.
So were the words of certain leaders.
So is what gets religious people murdered.
So are the reasons the USA has been so divided and bordering on civil war recently.
So is what people think after being gaslit.

You speak as though beliefs are harmless, yet they are often very far from it.

It's trolling. I guess this gives the forum more excitement?

 

[Mind Maverick]

It's trolling. I guess this gives the forum more excitement?

I read this the wrong way at first - I guess you meant theablekingedgar was trolling? I thought you meant me for a second. Based on other posts, that's quite possible. I always thought they seemed like a dupe, personally.

 

[Tilt]

I read this the wrong way at first - I guess you meant theablekingedgar was trolling? I thought you meant me for a second. Based on other posts, that's quite possible. I always thought they seemed like a dupe, personally.

Haha oops. Yes. I meant the OP. I am usually the last person to go on the dupe train but even I am highly suspicious.

 

[Firebird 8118]

So was racism against black people when they were slaves.
So was what Hitler taught people when Jews were massacred.
So are some terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, etc.
So were the words of certain leaders.
So is what gets religious people murdered.
So are the reasons the USA has been so divided and bordering on civil war recently.
So is what people think after being gaslit.

You speak as though beliefs are harmless, yet they are often very far from it.



Beliefs conceive words and actions. Sometimes some beliefs are weapons, therefore.

I agree wholeheartedly. Words can be a far more powerful weapon, especially in the hands of oppressors and terrorists.

Beliefs like that repeated over and over can psychologically break a person over time. That’s the danger.

 

[indra]

So was racism against black people when they were slaves.
So was what Hitler taught people when Jews were massacred.
So are some terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, etc.
So were the words of certain leaders.
So is what gets religious people murdered.
So are the reasons the USA has been so divided and bordering on civil war recently.
So is what people think after being gaslit.

You speak as though beliefs are harmless, yet they are often very far from it.



Beliefs conceive words and actions. Sometimes some beliefs are weapons, therefore.

I do believe the person is saying one should get over the sensitivity to their beliefs.

 

[Lark]

I can understand why people dont like bad religion, I dont really understand why they would dislike good religion too but you get all sorts of people and some do spend too much time preoccupied with what others motives are or what they could be thinking.

Personally, I think if you repress religious or spiritual drives in yourself they'll not go away but re-emerge in some shape, its like other drives which people have no problem acknowledging that about.

So you could get someone who is an avowed atheist or non-theist or materialist who is a devoted AD&D player/follower. That's maybe a best case scenario.