• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Richard Dawkins disapproves of "anti-scientific" literature, like "Harry Potter"

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Oh, if we are bashing Harry Potter, I have one.

What's the best way to tell if someone is a non-reader? If they read all the Harry Potter books. Seems like everyone I know who has read the HP series... all other books are like kryptonite to them. But if it gets illiterate people to pick up a book, more power to them.

It's like entry level literature, for people who won't ever enter real literature.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
So, let me get this straight... the man brings up the possibility that fairy tales might lead to irrational thinking, and suggests that research be done... and suddenly he's billed as trying to ban them like a religious fundamentalist?

People really need to learn the meaning of "might" and "if." I have a major problem with people assuming I support a position simply because I acknowledge that if certain things are true, or certain assumptions are made, it might make sense. Often, I point this out even if I oppose the position in question.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx

Oh, if we are bashing Harry Potter, I have one.

What's the best way to tell if someone is a non-reader? If they read all the Harry Potter books. Seems like everyone I know who has read the HP series... all other books are like kryptonite to them. But if it gets illiterate people to pick up a book, more power to them.

It's like entry level literature, for people who won't ever enter real literature.
:cry:
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP





Awww, sorry Random and YWIR, I forget how young HP fans are. You two look happy and that's all that counts.

harrypotterfangirlsharr.jpg
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
So, let me get this straight... the man brings up the possibility that fairy tales might lead to irrational thinking, and suggests that research be done... and suddenly he's billed as trying to ban them like a religious fundamentalist?

People really need to learn the meaning of "might" and "if." I have a major problem with people assuming I support a position simply because I acknowledge that if certain things are true, or certain assumptions are made, it might make sense. Often, I point this out even if I oppose the position in question.

He's just an annoying, fun-killing geezer.

He's not a fundamentalist, but he's like one in all of the ways that actually matter.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
He's just an annoying, fun-killing geezer.

He's not a fundamentalist, but he's like one in all of the ways that actually matter.

I think its possible to just get obsessive and single issue, so he's like that and its at the expense of anything else or other diversions. I used to know Marxists who'd never bother reading any books which wherent marxist or didnt in some way relate to marxism, still do, and they can be pretty boring one dimensional people.
 

IntrovertedThinker

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
96
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I really doubt fantasy novels have any real effect on one's capacity for rational thought. As someone said, they are merely a minor, temporal slip out of reality for those who really enjoy imagination. And the enjoyment of imagination—or even the need or desire for such things—does not constitute some serious break with reality. If this were true, going to the movie theater to watch a movie about some imaginative scenario some screenwriter conjured up in their mind would indicate that people are inherently breaking with reality in some way which is indicative of some mental illness—but such a thought is clearly absurd. Additionally, is it not possible to both accept reality and entertain one's own mind with a bit of fantasy every now and then? Are children in danger every time they are read some imaginative story before bed every other night?

The only way I could see the existence of fantasy as even remotely detrimental to the public is if people were seriously led to believe that what is written in these books is somehow authentically related to physical reality, so that they should indeed take them a bit more seriously; but, no one does this. We are all clearly aware (or at least the lot of us should be) that there is a clear distinction between objective reality and what we read in books as children. Surely some of us may become a big imaginative at times and play out these scenarios about which we read, but I truly doubt many children actually lose their grip on reality in any significant way due to the reading of imaginative literature.

Thus, clearly there must an element of persuasion involved in fantasy and science fiction which actually makes the reading of such material potentially detrimental to rational persons and one's capacity for rational awareness. On it's own, however, fantasy and science fiction—even if such things aren't necessarily scientific—do not seem to pose any serious threat to the rationality of the common person. Not everything in life need be scientific anyhow, and a bit of imagination is actually a good thing, in my opinion. It allows temporary escapes from reality which amount to truly interesting entertainment for many people. Finding effects of fantasy on the rational mind would be similar to finding effects of music on the mind: certainly they probably aren't at all that serious.

Although, as Dawkins said, it can be looked into. I just think it'd amount to a giant waste of time.
There seems to be a clear distinction between mass delusion in the form of religious instruction of deities and the mere reading of fantasy stories.
For instance, very few people actually believe Frodo Baggins is a real boy or that that Star Wars planet "Hoth" is actually a real place somewhere in the universe.
Yet, how many people believe in God?

Ultimately, I think Dawkins is speculating about a connection which doesn't at all seem likely. [In fact, my response to whatever he seems to have been asked would have been, "It could have a real, pernicious effect on rational thought, but it doesn't seem likely."] There are distinct reasons why people who read religious literature actually begin to lose their break with reality by believing in such things, despite and to the contrary of physical and scientific evidence—and these distinct reasons (adults indoctrinating children to believe them) seem virtually non-existent in the simple leisurely reading and enjoyment of fantasy stories.
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
I'm still puzzled if he really is serious or not... or if it was taken out of context. Apparently, he was friends with Douglas Adams. The people I know who act that way would not even read a fantasy/sci-fi writer, let alone be good friends with one (he met his wife through Adams, so I assume that they must have been good friends).

Anyways.. of course Harry Potter isn't real. And I don't think there are even many children that truly would believe so. Or eventually, they tone it down.. like I did with some things. They'll geek out on it and maybe find inspiration from it, but it is such a non-issue. If someone was looking from the outside and thought these kids were lost or wanted to criticize or even restrict society, then ironically, I think they are more out of touch with reality than anyone. To think one's hold on reality is so much better than everyone else's that you have to "chime in" that Harry Potter is bad for kids is a fantasy in and of itself. One where you're some gallant hero of mental clarity in some pisshole of a world devoid of rationalism. Give me a break.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
Well if the dude invented memetics he clearly thinks that any ideas other than his own are a harmful virus and to be avoided.
 

Shimmy

New member
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,867
MBTI Type
SEXY
I can't make from the article what Richard Dawkins' point of view actually is. Nothing that is quoted or paraphrased from him seems to indicate he would be against fantasy novels, even if they do promote un-scientific thinking. But for the sake of the thread I will asume the author of the article got Dawkins' point of view correct and based on that give my opinion:

Even if fantasy novels would cause un-scientific thinking, which seems highly unlikely to me, then there's still not really a logical reason to object to them, and there could still be multiple rational reasons why you would be in favour of them (relaxation, fostering creativity etc.) Unless you can clearly demonstrate that fairy tales are a form of escapism, or that they diminish interest in relevant fields of knowledge or the world in general, than there is absolutely no reason to be against them.

Next we burn all art, because Picasso's paintings look nothing like real faces.

After that we could go for all music because our ears were evolutionary probably intended to hear predators rather than irrelevant background noise!

So yeah, I agree with Brian Green from the article.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I don't think he was actually condemning the idea at all (as discussed over two years ago in the beginning of this thread), but any excuse for a good Dawkins bashing, I guess.

I'm not defending the guy, I don't know him, but I'm not sure it was the intended direction of the thread. Oh well.

btw, I'm in biological science (research) and I read hundreds if not thousands of fantasy and sci-fi books as a child and continue to do so now. /anecdote :shrug:
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
Wait. Are we bashing Dawkins now or are we bashing Harry Potter?!?
Because I don't want to do either!

Please stop calling Harry Potter fans childish. Okay, HP is a children's book - but there is a huge difference between reading books meant for children and being childish. There's a reason the libraries put labels like "10+" on their books. I like reading. I read a lot. I've borrowed both from the children's and the adult's section in the library. Lots of adult books are basically bad children's books with more complicated grammar, nonexisting plot and a bit of sex added to it to make it an adult book. I've been disappointed more than once, especially with "good literature". It seems a book needs to be hard to read, full of symbols, and lacking action to be called "good". Please - this is just a matter of taste, not of stupidity. I'm able to read a sentence with a subclause, thank you very much.

About Dawkins - I've read two books of him, The selfish gene and The god delusion. I like them both. I've even bought a book he suggests as reading material in The god delusion; this one is The golden bough of Sir James Frazer. Not an easy read, but very interesting. I don't really know everything about his stance on fantasy fiction and I'm not going to bash him based on incomplete information.

I only think it's perfectly possible to be an atheist and a scientist and a fan of unscientific fantasy/SF fiction. I'm all three. That's why I reacted in this thread in the first place - to disprove the "atheists have no imagination / are as bad as religious fundamentalists" these.
 

Octarine

The Eighth Colour
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
1,351
MBTI Type
Aeon
Enneagram
10w
Instinctual Variant
so
Guys, this isn't a strongly held belief of Dawkins, it is an elaboration by a journalist based on a few candid comments. No point attacking a strawman.

Seriously, how many times can one writer use the sentence "Dumbledore's eyes twinkled" before taking it out of rotation?

Blasphemy!

PS, how many times was that phrase used?
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Wait. Are we bashing Dawkins now or are we bashing Harry Potter?!?
Because I don't want to do either!

Please stop calling Harry Potter fans childish. Okay, HP is a children's book - but there is a huge difference between reading books meant for children and being childish.

I'm not sure anyone here has called HP fans childish. I guess they might have, but for myself, I didn't and wouldn't say that. I just don't think the book is good. I love good childrens' literature, though. :D
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,707
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
In scientific viewpoint, Harry Potter is actually quite modern. There is an increase in knowledge, eg. Dumbledore discovered some uses for dragon blood. Compare that with the Lord of the Rings, where there is a decrease in everything - knowledge, power, greatness... Harry Potters world is an evolving one, getting more complex and great as time increases; while LOTR has been shapen perfectly and is decaying since. Mr. Dawkins should at least approve of that :) I can understand him criticizing other aspects of HP's magic, though.(*)
.

Yeah but you could say that a realm where all the magic\greatness etc is in the past would, in the long run, have to rely on science as 'the magic leaves the world'.
It's still a bit silly to 'disapprove of anti scientific litterature'. I'd rather encourage a renewal of interest in hard science fiction instead for example. But hard sci fi sort of requires some interest in sciences while all you need to 'understand' fantasy is basically to have heard of magic, and children tales are generally irrational, partly because a child's cognitive abilities are lacking relative to a grown up's.

The thoughts are less complex, there's less ability to hold (in mind) and combine many elements at once. Magic is both very simple and can provide children with continuous novelty (normally unlikely in systems so simple), kids are basically evolutionarily hardwired to like it. Science based works don't function in that way, if you want 'more' you generally have to make it more complex, to ask the reader for more background knowledge etc.

So there's far more chances of having some kind of emotional attachement to the thing from an early age.
It'd be interesting to see authors try to write more good scifi for kids. (like Ender's game for example)
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
So, let me get this straight... the man brings up the possibility that fairy tales might lead to irrational thinking, and suggests that research be done... and suddenly he's billed as trying to ban them like a religious fundamentalist?

People really need to learn the meaning of "might" and "if." I have a major problem with people assuming I support a position simply because I acknowledge that if certain things are true, or certain assumptions are made, it might make sense. Often, I point this out even if I oppose the position in question.
Look at who started the thread...a butt-hurt creationist. I don't think I need to explain why he would be motivated to start a thread like this.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,707
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
About the article itself (i was just stating that such a statement would be silly, not that I believe any hear say)
The author sorts of deforms the idea that dawkins 'd like it studied and make it into a crusade of epic proportion.
That's sort of like talking about hungry africans everytime somebody asks you to pass the bread.

And describing dawkins as humorless is just silly, the guy spends half his time making fun of religious people. : P
The man sure is a bit over zealous at times, but then again history and common sense taught us that the calm and composed voice of reason by itself rarely convinces when faced with overly emotional crazy utterances and horrible misconceptions of statistics or causation vs correlation.
 
Top