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  1. #1
    Member Scaven's Avatar
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    Default The bible's legitimacy

    I’m not questioning about the existence of god. I can’t prove that god doesn’t exists, so I must account for a possibility of his existence, even if I think the probability is extremely small. Nor do I want to insult anyone. If I did, or will, I’m sorry, it isn’t my objective. I have never read the bible neither.

    What I am wondering is about the bible itself. Why do people usually follow it blindly? I’ve seen its danger with many more scientific topics like vaccines, 5G and so on. ehy do you believe and trust a book that as been written around two thousands years ago? I know it teaches you about love, respect and kindness. But why is it necessary god’s word? I've read that the old testament is more brutal. If the popes have been the cause for numerous hateful crimes throughout history, why do you still trust the Vatican? I’m not questioning small churches neither, I believe they are helpful for locals.

    As I see it, the bible has been written by smart people trying to improve the world they are living in. They made barbaric men stay civilized by making them fear hell. They kept them loyal by telling them about the evil that will destroy the world and how only the faithful will be saved.

    So, what is your opinion about the bible? Do you think it is god’s word, or at least god’s opinion? Or are you on the other extreme, believing that it is not different from Mein Kampf or the little red book? What do you think?
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    Kawaii Red Memories's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaven View Post
    I’m not questioning about the existence of god. I can’t prove that god doesn’t exists, so I must account for a possibility of his existence, even if I think the probability is extremely small. Nor do I want to insult anyone. If I did, or will, I’m sorry, it isn’t my objective. I have never read the bible neither.

    What I am wondering is about the bible itself. Why do people usually follow it blindly? I’ve seen its danger with many more scientific topics like vaccines, 5G and so on. ehy do you believe and trust a book that as been written around two thousands years ago? I know it teaches you about love, respect and kindness. But why is it necessary god’s word? I've read that the old testament is more brutal. If the popes have been the cause for numerous hateful crimes throughout history, why do you still trust the Vatican? I’m not questioning small churches neither, I believe they are helpful for locals.

    As I see it, the bible has been written by smart people trying to improve the world they are living in. They made barbaric men stay civilized by making them fear hell. They kept them loyal by telling them about the evil that will destroy the world and how only the faithful will be saved.

    So, what is your opinion about the bible? Do you think it is god’s word, or at least god’s opinion? Or are you on the other extreme, believing that it is not different from Mein Kampf or the little red book? What do you think?
    So, the Bible, speaking, it very heavily depends what denomination is looking at it.

    The Catholic/Orthodox perspective is that the Bible was in fact written "by God" through the hands of the humans. Therefore you are not supposed to question the basic guidelines. Keep in mind "basic guidelines". Because ultimately the Bible is ALSO a historical book. We do not go around stoning people or chopping out tongues anymore you know.

    The Protestant (non-Catholic) perspective varies some, but the main idea is they feel the Bible was "inspired" by God, maybe not quite word for word, and we should see the book as Jesus spoke. Jesus spoke in parables. Therefore they prefer to see the Bible as a set of stories, kind of like a book, in which we are meant to derive the actions God wants from us.

    I personally feel the Bible is a historical book which was inspired by God, and the stories within the Bible account for interactions between God and humanity throughout time, showing usual life lessons of suffering and etc. I feel God will guide you on what you need to see at a time, and what message you need to receive. I think it is important to have a healthy prayer life while reading the Bible to get a grasp of God having a relationship with you in which to guide you. But by books such as Numbers or Chronicles, it is obvious the Bible is HISTORICAL. It is a certain place in time and certain aspects may have a root in something today but not firm grounding.

    Speaking as a more non-denominational type of Christian who went from Catholic to Lutheran to playing with Nazarene and Angelican and basically have dipped my head in most Christian theology... XD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaven View Post
    I’m not questioning about the existence of god. I can’t prove that god doesn’t exists, so I must account for a possibility of his existence, even if I think the probability is extremely small. Nor do I want to insult anyone. If I did, or will, I’m sorry, it isn’t my objective. I have never read the bible neither.

    What I am wondering is about the bible itself. Why do people usually follow it blindly? I’ve seen its danger with many more scientific topics like vaccines, 5G and so on. ehy do you believe and trust a book that as been written around two thousands years ago? I know it teaches you about love, respect and kindness. But why is it necessary god’s word? I've read that the old testament is more brutal. If the popes have been the cause for numerous hateful crimes throughout history, why do you still trust the Vatican? I’m not questioning small churches neither, I believe they are helpful for locals.

    As I see it, the bible has been written by smart people trying to improve the world they are living in. They made barbaric men stay civilized by making them fear hell. They kept them loyal by telling them about the evil that will destroy the world and how only the faithful will be saved.

    So, what is your opinion about the bible? Do you think it is god’s word, or at least god’s opinion? Or are you on the other extreme, believing that it is not different from Mein Kampf or the little red book? What do you think?
    I think mein kampf is a very poor comparison, probably the works of shakespeare would be a better idea.

    Its a good idea not to follow anything blindly.

    The best books, I think, are Sirach, Amos, The Prophetic books, Mathew and The Book of James, especially the book of James.

    There's plenty of other books that I think are great and I like many of the stories when I see them in new formats (seriously, that happens a lot) too but those are the ones I remember right now and are worth a mention.
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    complete Legion's Avatar
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    Many of the writers and characters of the bible were said to receive their messages directly from God. Does God speak in words? Or did they translate from God's Word? Or was a holy messenger sent to reveal God's message?

    So once written, they have to be passed down through the generations, and could receive changes. How close to the originals are these documents?

    In the case of the gospels, these are eye witness testimonies. Were they compiled correctly at the time? Were things added to them, and what was added to them?


    I don't think the bible is exempt from corruption just because it is holy. Rather I think it has been corrupted to a significant degree. But I do believe in listening to God, and that these prophets were true prophets.
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    Senior Member Justin of Flavia Neapolis's Avatar
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    “Logos” was mistranslated into English as “Word.” That’s why “God’s Word” doesn’t really make sense in many instances. Understanding theology is easier with a cursory familiarity with philosophy.

    The Anglophone tendency when they hear “God’s Word” is to to make a connection to words on a page of a book which is where you get that low-church Protestant turn of phrase “God’s Word” = Bible. And to some extent that is true, but that’s not the only thing “Logos” means. And a lot of that is lost in the Western laity unfortunately.

    When translated into English “God created the world through His Word” barely makes any sense. Replace “Word” with Logos and it starts to mean something more. But, the English translation is good in the descriptive that God “spoke” the universe into existence with His Word(s). Which is true because He named them into existence. Similarly, one cannot join a forum without a name. We know you exist because you have a name, and to some people like my wife, names are very important to get right. We can see in other ways labels are emphasized because without a label does the thing even exist?

    We find on this forum a thread dedicated entirely to name changes, and we see many members who regularly rename themselves as the mood changes being that their identities and/or personality type are in constant flux without Someone to ground the truth of their being on. This could be a small insight into the macrocosm of modern renaming rituals in the world at-large. 🧐

    That being said, what’s my opinion of the Bible? It’s a book written by the Church for the Church. Actually, at the time of writing, I doubt the authors would’ve known the Church would eventually compile their letters together into a single tome ~800 years later.
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    Bible is an amalgamation of stories from 66 people, all recalling their experiences with God. You can say its a bit strange that they did so consistantly, over a long period of time and the books survived. (Except the dead sea scrolls/lost chapters) The bible, unlike other religious texts, has been edited to be more peaceful and adaptable. Which is why it was easier to spread. Its the furthest from its original form. I think the Quran is the closest to its unedited form.

    As for legitimacy, its very possible some sort of "messiah" came in that time period, causing such a sharp increase of religion. But thats yhe only thing going for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maou View Post
    Bible is an amalgamation of stories from 66 people, all recalling their experiences with God. You can say its a bit strange that they did so consistantly, over a long period of time and the books survived. (Except the dead sea scrolls/lost chapters) The bible, unlike other religious texts, has been edited to be more peaceful and adaptable. Which is why it was easier to spread. Its the furthest from its original form. I think the Quran is the closest to its unedited form.

    As for legitimacy, its very possible some sort of "messiah" came in that time period, causing such a sharp increase of religion. But thats yhe only thing going for it.
    I agree and just wanted to add something:
    The seven crusades from 1095/99 and the 13th century against the orient helped spreading it a bit, plus the fact that you faced huge repercussion for a long time if you weren't a devoted believer.


    I'm not quite sure IIRC but I believe a historian I once watched, who did some deeper research into the Bible and Jesus said that, the timelines of the different gospels didn't really line up - there must have passed a lot of time between some gospels being written. Which would explain why so many people and other articles by historians I've read believe that it was written by people who didn't necessarily agree on the same views and morals. I got the same impression when I read it.

    @Scaven I also think it was written to make 'barbaric men stay civilized by making them fear hell.' Given how there are many stories that puts women in a place of having no real value, not to mention slaves, I could believe they also saw it as a way to lay down rules that benefitted them amongst other things - thinking about that passage about a prostitue and how she was basically treated like an animal and that was aproppriate according to the narrative, and also how women should marry the rapists but the rapist needs to pay compensation to the father of that woman, also I recall an instruction on how you go correctly about physical punishment of your slaves, and I think that was all in the new testimony but someone can correct me if that's wrong. I can't recall the whole thing word for word with all the details but the bottom line is ... there were just too many stories like that, that make my stomach turn when I read it many years ago. The bible still was way more peaceful than any other holy books in that time, as a matter of fact. And I think these men were clever in the way of catching the Zeitgeist to make so many believers and aside from that, I also think they managed to figure out a psychological tool that adheres to a lot of different psychological needs and fears. Yeah, all the holy books and belief structures do this to a certain degree. But that aspect of hell and heaven, and sins and redemption is a very smart one, because it really plays into a deeply ingrained dynamic of fear of repercussions, so it makes sense to do the 'right' thing, because as the book says, otherwise you would face repercussion and a lot of people don't want that, which is natural and understandable. This dynamic is only in the baselines the same as parents use on their child to raise them, to have necessary control over them: Do something I deem wrong and I will punish you. Do things right, you'll get rewarded. That simple construct works in various different contexts and circumstances in principle on most people. I think that's to a degree where the lure of the bible lies as well as other already mentioned factors.

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    Member Scaven's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your answer. I just read my post again and was a bit ashamed of how poorly I wrote it. Tired or not, I could have written it a bit more neutral and respectful.

    What I still don’t quite understand, after reading your comments, is what makes you believe in it. Many of you have written that it was written by multiple people throughout history and then put together as a book. So, why do you think that those people are right about the world. If I understand correctly, they wrote stories about events involving god. Like Pluto wrote Socrates ideas through stories about him. So, why do you believe the writings are historical and not fiction?

    I’ve never read the bible, but I heard that many of the stories have inconsistencies with physics and world history. Like that the world was created in 3 days, or that it is only a few thousand years old. If there is a god, why would he be like in the bible? What makes the bible more “accurate” than Greek mythology?

    Lastly, God, whether he exists or not, is described as omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. I’m sure you have already heard of that idea that god doesn’t exists because he can’t be all three at the same time and have created a world with war and child mortality. I am not really interested in your opinion about if god actually exists, that is not the point of this thread. Of course, you can answer that too, if you want. What I am more curious about is isn’t it possible that god exists, but not portrayed like in the bible? That he can’t be all three, but still exists? That the bible might be fiction, but god not?

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    Shakespeare is great too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaven View Post
    Thank you all for your answer. I just read my post again and was a bit ashamed of how poorly I wrote it. Tired or not, I could have written it a bit more neutral and respectful.

    What I still don’t quite understand, after reading your comments, is what makes you believe in it. Many of you have written that it was written by multiple people throughout history and then put together as a book. So, why do you think that those people are right about the world. If I understand correctly, they wrote stories about events involving god. Like Pluto wrote Socrates ideas through stories about him. So, why do you believe the writings are historical and not fiction?

    I’ve never read the bible, but I heard that many of the stories have inconsistencies with physics and world history. Like that the world was created in 3 days, or that it is only a few thousand years old. If there is a god, why would he be like in the bible? What makes the bible more “accurate” than Greek mythology?

    Lastly, God, whether he exists or not, is described as omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. I’m sure you have already heard of that idea that god doesn’t exists because he can’t be all three at the same time and have created a world with war and child mortality. I am not really interested in your opinion about if god actually exists, that is not the point of this thread. Of course, you can answer that too, if you want. What I am more curious about is isn’t it possible that god exists, but not portrayed like in the bible? That he can’t be all three, but still exists? That the bible might be fiction, but god not?
    The bible isn't meant to be taken 100% literally. A lot of what is written is a kind of symbolic/poetic dramatisation.

    That being said, I "believe" in it because of just how much wisdom is found in it. I don't know of any other book that approaches it in that regard. Many of the things it says, about God, morality etc. seem to me to be true or close to true.

    I just have a problem with things being added to the bible, like Jesus being said to have said things that he never said.


    Regarding the problem of why there are bad things in the world if God exists, that's because God gave us free will, and our first parents disobeyed God's plan and went their own way. We have chosen to do evil, and have brought evil into the world ourselves. If we return to the right path, then in heaven things will be well for us.

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