Humans and Competition

[Lark]

What?

Its OK that you dont understand. Its in keeping with your pattern.

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Nope, I am just saying competition exists, and always will. Thats it.

Oh, I know what you were saying. I see you.

 

[Lark]

I am being sarcastic. My impression of Ceecee's tone is rude, and insulting. She clearly dislikes me, but constantly quotes me. So what do you do in that position? S

Your impression of Ceecee's tone was rude and insulting? How do you tell the tone of a post online? How did you form that impression?

Is it clear that she dislikes you?

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Competition was meant to make any moral prerequisites a mute point.

It was the whole of what Adam Smith was saying with that oft quoted idea about it was "not from benevolence" that the butcher, baker, candlestick maker produced their wares for market.

They've all got bills to pay.....Imo, you take the morality out of any system and then it won't work anymore. Do you agree?

 

[anticlimatic]

What modern times? Who are these "lot of people" and when did they make this argument? I dont remember reading it lately. I read a lot of people saying the opposite. Constantly. Unfortunately, as with this post, they are not good at supporting it with any sort of evidence. I really do not see how a pandemic is a vindication of competition or the extreme notion that you join with competition or die or that this extreme notion is a foundation of life. Perhaps you can elaborate. I dont think pandemic is fun or sport to be honest. Perhaps that is not what you meant. Sport surely is an example of competition which does not in any way resemble the extreme notion of compete or die.

If you can't find any evidence of competition in nature my friend, I dare say you're not looking. Like, at anything. At all.

Competing with viruses is not fun. I was referring more to competitions we get to more consciously participate in.

 

[Lark]

They've all got bills to pay.....Imo, you take the morality out of any system and then it won't work anymore. Do you agree?

I believe that competition has not dispensed with the need for moral precepts, its not even really diminished the need of the same, it was hoped that it would do so by most of the classical economists and classical liberals though.

Though, honestly, I dont rate competition that highly. In an information age which could transcend hokum like the calculation debate I think competition is an out moded relic. Maybe its worth preserving in some purely academic sense, like anticlimatics sport/fun and games for amusement.

 

[Lark]

If you can't find any evidence of competition in nature my friend, I dare say you're not looking. Like, at anything. At all.

Competing with viruses is not fun. I was referring more to competitions we get to more consciously participate in.

Competition by choice? Hmm, maybe, competiting with viruses is not fun.

I was not looking for competition in nature, I was looking for some supporting evidence for your point in your post.

Honestly, competition is not that prevalent, for most of the animal kingdom its not a priority. You could probably make as much of a case for mutual aid as competition in terms of natural selection/the survival of genes across the generational span/time line. Its assumed prevalence in nature is generally supposed as a vindication for something else, hence why I mentioned the "naturalistic fallacy".

Most of the time its a psychological projection of human, all too human concerns onto the natural world. Usually by people who're more used to talking about competition than actually participating in it. Like I said at the outset competition does not apply to everyone. If you would surmise about what the consequences for the entire population would be of not engaging in some sort of fierce competition for scarce resources then look to those that already do not experience that. Nice problems to have.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Most Social Darwinists: "I'm for unfettered competition unless I lose."

 

[anticlimatic]

Most Social Darwinists: "I'm for unfettered competition unless I lose."

Have we tried making covid19 illegal yet?

 

[Maou]

Your impression of Ceecee's tone was rude and insulting? How do you tell the tone of a post online? How did you form that impression?

Is it clear that she dislikes you?

I don't know. Between the insults and belittleing, it is kinda obvious no?

Also, where have you been? Did you take a break?

 

[Lark]

I don't know. Between the insults and belittleing, it is kinda obvious no?

Also, where have you been? Did you take a break?

Gets boring reading the same baffling attempts to revive bad thinking that was old when I was young.

Plus a lot of it is trolling and trojans for God knows what, so, you know gets very tedious and dull.

 

[Maou]

Gets boring reading the same baffling attempts to revive bad thinking that was old when I was young.

Plus a lot of it is trolling and trojans for God knows what, so, you know gets very tedious and dull.

You think Cercee is trolling me?

 

[Lark]

You think Cercee is trolling me?

No, I do not think that Ceecee is trolling you.

 

[???]

Humans are naturally competitive, as are all creatures. If you took away the need for competition, what do you think would happen? Would humans become indolent and decadent, or would they become something entirely different?

It sounds like you are implying that because humans are naturally competitive that either we allow all competition or none at all. But there can be healthy competition and unhealthy competition. Such as humans competing for a limited food supply where people have to fight over who will die versus humans competing on how to get everyone enough food; there can be unhealthy competition where a large business creates economic shortage by finding ways to kill off all competition and monopolize a market versus healthy competition where many companies can thrive in the same market and provide the most overall economic surplus, even if one is more successful than another.

So yes, I agree with you that humans are naturally competitive and that we shouldn't just take that away. But we should learn to decipher and take away the unhealthy competition. It's a much more humanistic and rational approach. And we can most certainly do both.

 

[Jaq]

It sounds like you are implying that because humans are naturally competitive that either we allow all competition or none at all. But there can be healthy competition and unhealthy competition. Such as humans competing for a limited food supply where people have to fight over who will die versus humans competing on how to get everyone enough food; there can be unhealthy competition where a large business creates economic shortage by finding ways to kill off all competition and monopolize a market versus healthy competition where many companies can thrive in the same market and provide the most overall economic surplus, even if one is more successful than another.

So yes, I agree with you that humans are naturally competitive and that we shouldn't just take that away. But we should learn to decipher and take away the unhealthy competition. It's a much more humanistic and rational approach. And we can most certainly do both.

I wasn't really trying to imply anything, I was just trying to provide food for thought to start the conversation, though good point.

 

[Tellenbach]

Competition is a strong motivator and depending on the ethical nature of the person, it can be a force for good or evil. Other, more highly evolved individuals, don't need competition to motivate them. I read a book about a doctor who'd spend most of his waking life helping people. He'd give his patients his personal telephone number and he'd spend hours after work just thinking about how to help people. People like this doctor don't need competition to motivate them; his love of learning and helping people drives him and gives his life meaning.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Humans are naturally competitive, as are all creatures.

 

[Obfuscate]

 

[Lark]

It sounds like you are implying that because humans are naturally competitive that either we allow all competition or none at all. But there can be healthy competition and unhealthy competition. Such as humans competing for a limited food supply where people have to fight over who will die versus humans competing on how to get everyone enough food; there can be unhealthy competition where a large business creates economic shortage by finding ways to kill off all competition and monopolize a market versus healthy competition where many companies can thrive in the same market and provide the most overall economic surplus, even if one is more successful than another.

So yes, I agree with you that humans are naturally competitive and that we shouldn't just take that away. But we should learn to decipher and take away the unhealthy competition. It's a much more humanistic and rational approach. And we can most certainly do both.

I dont think humans are "naturally" competitive, for the reasons I mentioned before, although I'm not sure that any norm can be "just taken away". Its part of the reason I've been very skeptical, and remain so, about the vast majority of cultural liberalism's and the LGBT community's attempts to institute their private values as social norms.

Although I do think its interesting what you say about healthy and unhealthy competition, it sounds like the sorts of competition you consider unhealthy are those sorts aimed at ending competition, like the big competitors in a marketplace using monopoly power to prevent new competitors. Unfortunately if the board teaches anything there's not much of a way around that. Although government competition policies, in theory, are about correcting those tendencies.

I have a question though, the form of permissible competition you describe with the analogy of food scarcity, is the point that competing as individuals, personal competition, is reprehensible but group or universal, ie humans versus other species/life, is fine?

 

[Lark]

Competition is a strong motivator and depending on the ethical nature of the person, it can be a force for good or evil. Other, more highly evolved individuals, don't need competition to motivate them. I read a book about a doctor who'd spend most of his waking life helping people. He'd give his patients his personal telephone number and he'd spend hours after work just thinking about how to help people. People like this doctor don't need competition to motivate them; his love of learning and helping people drives him and gives his life meaning.

I dont want to segway the conversation too much but (some) feminists would describe that as an "ethos" or "ethic" of "care" as opposed to "work ethic" or "competitiveness" which they identify with men/masculine norms/values.

In reality there's a bunch of things that motivate people, so I agree with that, I dont think reduction to competition is either realistic or liable to prove helpful, ultimately. Although if you operate in a context which values competition uber alas you are not going to be able to ignore that for long, whatever your personal or private values may happen to be.

Which is where the real problem, I believe, begins, as mankind is not infinitely adaptable, changeable, malleable someone could conform to the social norms, in case those stressing competition, for so long but eventually being out of touch with themselves is going to result in their becoming sick, one way or another, human nature will put a check on human fancy.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'd rather not compete and just feel worthy enough to begin with. I'm not super interested in social competition, as in I can't really play games that make myself "come out on top". I just am what I am, and oftentimes that's enough to knock me down a couple levels because I'm largely unpalatable at the social level. I do think everyone competes in some way though, even if it's subtle (or even silent) and subconscious. Some people do little things to make themselves stand out, or pride themselves on a skill. Others shun competition altogether and that in itself is a form of competition channeled through individuality. Some pride themselves on their intelligence, or what they think they have to offer others. Some silently wish to be competed for.

Not all competition is overt or a power play.