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American Civic Religion: Americanism, the religion for the secular American

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When you separate Church and State, the State becomes the Church. This is all very obvious if you already practice a traditional religion, in my case Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Due to the nature of American Christianity (puritan Calvinism) being sterilized of any symbols, deep meanings, a sense of deep history, and traditions they are willing to acknowledge, American Christians flock to Americanism to fill in the gaps. This can be seen by the Evangelical Protestant rejection of Roman Catholic statuary, but will make a pilgrimage to see Mt. Rushmore, Ellis Island, or Washington DC to see the Lincoln Monument making those the objects of acceptable idolatry. Their unshakable faith in Trump being their God-ordained "Messiah" is another example of this. Many Americans are suffering from a deep cognitive dissonance in this regard.

This can be seen during election years past and present. I believe the Politics section was closed for a year due to the almost fanatical verbal conflicts that were occurring on a regular basis. This can be seen in real-time as these conflicts manifest themselves with several larger cities being the battlegrounds for quasi-religious conflict to erupt as their generals announce the field of battle on social media while the retaliating forces meet them. Often times, the police forces of the cities will be allied with one side or another. All of this due to a Sola-Scriptura-esque reading and interpretation of the Founding documents, seen as an almost Holy Scripture: The Constitution, being read with differing opinions as the political-religious denominations are fighting for control of the nation. This is all very fascinating as an outside observer.


...and for a more in-depth discussion on the topic:
 

Luminous

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Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

No.

Your basic premise is wrong. While some Americans do what you say, many don't. It is not necessary for the state to become a church. It is not necessary to have a church.
 
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While some Americans do what you say, many don't.

I agree. There seems to be a sort of “Reformation” afoot as to what it means to be an American between those whom want to conserve the Enlightenment Liberal ideals which formed this propositional nation and those whom would like to progress that nation further into an ideal as yet undetermined.

It is not necessary for the state to become a church.

Although, this is an expressed ideal, in practice it doesn’t actually hold up due to Man’s inherent religious nature and his tendency to create cultural traditions/“religions” out of anything conceivable, and that would include politics.

Thank you for your contribution.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I always got that impression, when visiting DC, that places like the Lincoln Memorial and Jefferson Memorial almost felt like temples to American demigods. We're not all that unlike the pre-Christian romans, who would proclaim emperors to be divine.
 

Coriolis

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Although, this is an expressed ideal, in practice it doesn’t actually hold up due to Man’s inherent religious nature and his tendency to create cultural traditions/“religions” out of anything conceivable, and that would include politics.
The fact that the state will not function as a church does not preclude actual churches and other faith centers from doing so. I suspect most Americans satisfy the need for church/religion within their actual faith community. The stripped-down aesthetics of certain Protestant denominations says nothing about other denominations, Christian and otherwise, nor does it preclude their followers from finding deep symbolic and spiritual meaning in something other than the physical trappings of their church.
 
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The fact that the state will not function as a church does not preclude actual churches and other faith centers from doing so. I suspect most Americans satisfy the need for church/religion within their actual faith community. The stripped-down aesthetics of certain Protestant denominations says nothing about other denominations, Christian and otherwise, nor does it preclude their followers from finding deep symbolic and spiritual meaning in something other than the physical trappings of their church.

I'm afraid the point is being lost, so I'll place a word of scripture here:

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

Your argument is more about trees whereas mine being about forest.

So, the point wasn't that they derive no spirituality from their respective sects whatsoever, but that many American Christians today are what are called: "Nominal Christians" according to the sample sizes in the Pew Research. A lot of their (nominal Christians) identities being developed around things like sports, politics, or even a TV series, in practice, while if you ask them they would say something to effect of "Sure, I believe in Jesus. No, I don't go to church on Sunday. Yes, I celebrate Christmas." And this is what makes up the bulk of the so-called "Christian Nation" that is so often touted by the "Right." The actual religious Evangelicals are the minority according to comparative samples. Many of the nominal Christians ultimately end up being non-believers/atheists, or very strong agnostics/deists, anyway.

But, this thread isn't to discuss American Christianity, but rather Americanism.
 

Coriolis

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I'm afraid the point is being lost, so I'll place a word of scripture here:



Your argument is more about trees whereas mine being about forest.

So, the point wasn't that they derive no spirituality from their respective sects whatsoever, but that many American Christians today are what are called: "Nominal Christians" according to the sample sizes in the Pew Research. A lot of their (nominal Christians) identities being developed around things like sports, politics, or even a TV series, in practice, while if you ask them they would say something to effect of "Sure, I believe in Jesus. No, I don't go to church on Sunday. Yes, I celebrate Christmas." And this is what makes up the bulk of the so-called "Christian Nation" that is so often touted by the "Right." The actual religious Evangelicals are the minority according to comparative samples. Many of the nominal Christians ultimately end up being non-believers/atheists, or very strong agnostics/deists, anyway.

But, this thread isn't to discuss American Christianity, but rather Americanism.
Your initial point seemed to blame this situation on the separation between church and state. That point was not made. If, as the highlighted suggests, you acknowledge that Americans derive spiritual benefit from their religious traditions, I am not sure how that ties into the statement that they are in fact only "nominal Christians".

Bottom line: though your observations have merit, I have no idea what point you are trying to make with them.
 
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Your initial point seemed to blame this situation on the separation between church and state. That point was not made. If, as the highlighted suggests, you acknowledge that Americans derive spiritual benefit from their religious traditions, I am not sure how that ties into the statement that they are in fact only "nominal Christians".

Bottom line: though your observations have merit, I have no idea what point you are trying to make with them.

Asynartetic got it. Read his post.
 

ceecee

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I always got that impression, when visiting DC, that places like the Lincoln Memorial and Jefferson Memorial almost felt like temples to American demigods. We're not all that unlike the pre-Christian romans, who would proclaim emperors to be divine.

I'm quite sure Trump agrees with the divinity his hardcore supporters claim on his behalf.

But yes I think in DC it's all about making Washington or Jefferson immortal (although it never felt that way at Mt. Vernon or Monticello to me). Maybe it explains the fascination with British monarchy too - we don't have one so we embrace it with the usual American voyeurism.
 

Luminous

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I'm quite sure Trump agrees with the divinity his hardcore supporters claim on his behalf.

But yes I think in DC it's all about making Washington or Jefferson immortal (although it never felt that way at Mt. Vernon or Monticello to me). Maybe it explains the fascination with British monarchy too - we don't have one so we embrace it with the usual American voyeurism.

For whatever it's worth, my impression of visiting Mt Rushmore is that it is far more about Gutzon Borglum (the artist) than the presidents. And Jefferson's ice cream recipe, which is served there. Of course, that may just be what I paid attention to... that and hoping to see mountain goats...
 

ceecee

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For whatever it's worth, my impression of visiting Mt Rushmore is that it is far more about Gutzon Borglum (the artist) than the presidents. And Jefferson's ice cream recipe, which is served there. Of course, that may just be what I paid attention to... that and hoping to see mountain goats...

I visited as a teen but I'm fine never returning. It may have more to do with my feelings on the location. Or that Borglum was a a KKK member with Nordic moral superiority and deep hatred for immigrants and so few seem to be aware of that.
 
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Mainstream Conservatism isn't really conserving anything. Keep watch over your hearts and minds, ladies and gents. The lion is prowling, stalking, and devouring those whom are careless.

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; - 2 Peter 3:17

 

Doctor Cringelord

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"Survival of the Fittest"

Wise words from Chingachgook:

"Native American Agency" - 4:35

I see that attitude taken a lot towards native peoples.

I mean, the same attitude might be taken toward past Christian nations that have been overrun by Islamic invaders.


The Lakota people have every right to preserve what little remains of their people and culture.
 
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