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  1. #1
    Senior Member cacaia's Avatar
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    Default Is this a personality thing and/ or do you relate?

    Hi, everyone. So, I have deeply struggled philosophically with my family ( mother's side, mainly) since I was pretty young.
    We always had a loving relationship growing up, but once I further developed my views of the world, that's when everything came crashing down.
    My family is full of STs and some SFs, with only one ENFP aunt ( we get along just fine, but that's about it).
    They are very conservative , but not religious.
    I was always dubbed the "strange cousin" or " that sweet but very different child with very modern ideals" by them.
    I found most of what was said, discussed, or argued during dinner conversations was offensive to my ears. I mostly listened. But when I would make a counter argument, they would tell me I was too sensitive, or to just grow up, or they would roll their eyes and change the subject.
    I always also feel like I am the bad guy if I mention something that someone said was mysoginistic or racist. I think I'm taking the high ground for calling them out on it ( very gently, of course) to persuade their views, but then the family member who was previously so hateful and aggressive in their previous speech would then look at me like they were the victim. Up to this day ( and I am almost 40!) I am made to feel ashamed of what I say to them. Even if I was totally and most absolutely correct in my decision to call them out on things.
    It doesn't help that my Estj mom, who tries to keep everyone together, berates me for speaking my mind, which is apparently always wrong, because I may have hurt an uncle or aunt's feelings. No thought for my own feelings is taken into account.
    Does anyone relate who has a family that clearly does not match your own type? Is this a type thing????
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  2. #2
    ∂ιѕgяα¢є∂ ¢σѕмσηαυт Luminous's Avatar
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    I can relate somewhat. It sounds worse in your family, though. My grandmother, uncle, and father are like your family. I used to argue with my father. Sometimes I'd get him to acknowledge something I said as correct, but the next day, it'd be back where it started and he'd rant about whatever like we never discussed it. It gets really annoying at family gatherings. I think they've somewhat decided not to discuss politics as much, which is great. Most of the time I try not to contribute and to change the subject. My grandmother and uncle look at me like I'm a naive child. I wonder if my father is disappointed in me. I suspect my father is an xSTP 6 or 8 sxsp. My grandmother probably an ISxJ 2w3 or 6 spso and my uncle an enneagram 6.

    Maybe you could suggest avoiding the problematic subjects?
    ✦ᏖᏒᎥᎮ ค ℓιɬɬℓɛ Ꮭıɠɧɬ ʄคŋɬคʂɬıƈ✦ -: ✦ :- ƒ O ᖇ G E ᗪ I ᑎ ƒ I ᖇ E ❋-: ✦ :-★ᴅᴏɴ'ᴛ ꜰᴇᴇᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇᴇʟꜱ★
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  3. #3
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacaia View Post
    Hi, everyone. So, I have deeply struggled philosophically with my family ( mother's side, mainly) since I was pretty young.
    We always had a loving relationship growing up, but once I further developed my views of the world, that's when everything came crashing down.
    My family is full of STs and some SFs, with only one ENFP aunt ( we get along just fine, but that's about it).
    They are very conservative , but not religious.
    Hey there. Oh how lucky you are. Only philosophically I mean.
    To give you my point of view it is a karmic stuff (or link if you prefer). To me we came in "those families" to solve a problem, a boundary, a scare that you cary from one life to another.
    Oh yes I forgot to precise my XNF qualities that are flaws to my family, whatever I do (ST disease probably). I see them this way : Unable to bring support or just not willing to. The result (and the feeling on my side)was anyway the same.
    I bang the door for my birthday because I was fed up with what I call hypocritical behaviour. Rolling eyes as you said, or making no comment when I show enthusiasm, not being able to be happy for me, kidding about what is truly important to me
    (feeling totally misunderstood not to say taken for granted)...etc etc etc.
    whether I had been showing compassion and warmth. I really do think I have a generous heart but too much is too much. And I know my boundaries and wanna respect what I cannot take on anymore.
    Not feeling free to express myself is just UNBEARABLE TO ME. So I left because I deeply felt I had no choice.

    Sorry I am keeping on with my story and let yours aside. Let's come back to what you are experiencing right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by cacaia View Post
    I was always dubbed the "strange cousin" or " that sweet but very different child with very modern ideals" by them.
    I found most of what was said, discussed, or argued during dinner conversations was offensive to my ears. I mostly listened. But when I would make a counter argument, they would tell me I was too sensitive, or to just grow up, or they would roll their eyes and change the subject.
    I always also feel like I am the bad guy if I mention something that someone said was mysoginistic or racist. I think I'm taking the high ground for calling them out on it ( very gently, of course) to persuade their views, but then the family member who was previously so hateful and aggressive in their previous speech would then look at me like they were the victim. Up to this day ( and I am almost 40!) I am made to feel ashamed of what I say to them. Even if I was totally and most absolutely correct in my decision to call them out on things.
    It doesn't help that my Estj mom, who tries to keep everyone together, berates me for speaking my mind, which is apparently always wrong, because I may have hurt an uncle or aunt's feelings. No thought for my own feelings is taken into account.
    Does anyone relate who has a family that clearly does not match your own type? Is this a type thing????
    They can't understand your sensitivity (because they aren't in touch with theirs or only differently). Changing subject is rude to me (but that isn't true for everyone so I'll be called like you "too sensitive" around people who don't have this value).
    Do you change subject with them or do you pay attention to their words ?
    It is your responsibility to accept something which does not seem mutual. Accept or not. I would say listen to your heart, intuition, call this as you want, it knows many secrets you don't know yet....
    When I read your words it makes me sad : You certainly don't have in any way or for any reason to feel ashamed for what you say to them.
    The world is a beautiful place (with lots of assholes yes....) where the word "shame" shouldn't be linked to family, those who gave you birth.
    So if they make you feel ashamed, there is indeed something wrong. Not with you, maybe not even with them...but in the link you developed. It isn't your fault , it is your NATURE.

    I chose not to take on my shoulders the weight some wanted me to carry. It was my choice TO FEEL FREE and not to keep on fighting against people who just wanted to get on my nerves.
    I wanna fight for in my own life, not against stupid arguments that are useless.
    I felt no respect for love, nothing to share. I felt like a stranger, like a person having to bear a look on my own face that isn't good for my Human/Woman Revolution/Growth.
    I felt I was that black sheep they thought they could attach to a pole.


    I hope for you to find a solution, which may be in the crypt of communication. As I am concerned I am much more deep than what I show to people (my closed ones included) so people get a wrong idea about my True Self.


    Maybe wondering where you can better the communication with such species and see if you feel it is right for yourself as time goes by.
    If you feel the atmosphere is improving or not. If they show more tolerance or if you still feel like an alien on their planet.
    My dearest advise would still be BE WHO YOU ARE, and IF YOU CAN'T around them.............It's hard to accept sometimes......

    One last thing : They may accuse you, reject you, put you down and other delicious stuffs to experiment on your way.
    You can be free to chose entering their game or not. For the sake of the family, or for the sake of your own freedom.
    Whatever we are into, we'll always have to make choices. Your duty is to take the decision that will make you HAPPY. Only YOU and YOU only can know....

    Good "luck"
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

    Dare observing your shadows (50 shades of darkness) for your own well-being Unfortunately we are all fucking contagious Smile and see what happens around you......
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  4. #4
    ∂ιѕgяα¢є∂ ¢σѕмσηαυт Luminous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedAmazoneFriendZone View Post
    Changing subject is rude to me (but that isn't true for everyone so I'll be called like you "too sensitive" around people who don't have this value).
    Changing the subject, after remaining quiet while others rant viciously, is not nearly as rude as having a heated argument in which your views are not respected or getting up and leaving your relative's house, likely on a holiday or some other occasion. I am cognizant that my relatives would easily rift from me and that if I want them in my life at all, I have to choose which battles are worth fighting to the death of the relationships over.
    ✦ᏖᏒᎥᎮ ค ℓιɬɬℓɛ Ꮭıɠɧɬ ʄคŋɬคʂɬıƈ✦ -: ✦ :- ƒ O ᖇ G E ᗪ I ᑎ ƒ I ᖇ E ❋-: ✦ :-★ᴅᴏɴ'ᴛ ꜰᴇᴇᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇᴇʟꜱ★
    * ・゚ ・゚ * ⊱9w1✶S✶5w4✶X✶2w1⊰ * ・゚ ・゚ *
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  5. #5
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    @Luminous

    Well every one has his/her own reasons. I respect others' views/ Moreover, we can't speak of what we never felt deep inside.
    Every family is different. Our karma is unic. So is our sensitivity.

    All I can speak of the best are my own feelings and story.
    In english you say Advices are cheap = "Les conseilleurs ne sont pas les payeurs".

    To me my family is the spiritual one I chose. I can't understand people who keep on being some zombies inside of a family they don't feel they belong to, or worse faint to be nice whereas so many things are wrong.
    I need authenticity and love, if all I receive is acid and a tone of criticism, the black sheep isn't stupid enough to stay. There is greener grass elsewhere.

    I don't encourage others to think/act as I do but I am proud to think this way as it is the way I had been building myself
    (if no maybe I wouldn't be there to type those words today on my keyboard, thanks god self-preservation is working ! ).

    I can speak of all this because I know how I had been living my own experiment and it was TOUGH. There is no word to describe such a pain.
    But family (as they call it) isn't my priority. Integrity, dignity, authenticity yes. Shutting my mouth and seeming "nice" just to please others has never been and will never be.

    Family should rime with peace, harmony, care, tenderness. I keep on looking for this inside of myself and.... in other corners of the planet, where the energy is resourceful and compassionate.
    Yes it does exist and that is what truly matters as ....we can't change others.
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM

    Dare observing your shadows (50 shades of darkness) for your own well-being Unfortunately we are all fucking contagious Smile and see what happens around you......

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacaia View Post
    Hi, everyone. So, I have deeply struggled philosophically with my family ( mother's side, mainly) since I was pretty young.
    We always had a loving relationship growing up, but once I further developed my views of the world, that's when everything came crashing down.
    My family is full of STs and some SFs, with only one ENFP aunt ( we get along just fine, but that's about it).
    They are very conservative , but not religious.
    I was always dubbed the "strange cousin" or " that sweet but very different child with very modern ideals" by them.
    I found most of what was said, discussed, or argued during dinner conversations was offensive to my ears. I mostly listened. But when I would make a counter argument, they would tell me I was too sensitive, or to just grow up, or they would roll their eyes and change the subject.
    I always also feel like I am the bad guy if I mention something that someone said was mysoginistic or racist. I think I'm taking the high ground for calling them out on it ( very gently, of course) to persuade their views, but then the family member who was previously so hateful and aggressive in their previous speech would then look at me like they were the victim. Up to this day ( and I am almost 40!) I am made to feel ashamed of what I say to them. Even if I was totally and most absolutely correct in my decision to call them out on things.
    It doesn't help that my Estj mom, who tries to keep everyone together, berates me for speaking my mind, which is apparently always wrong, because I may have hurt an uncle or aunt's feelings. No thought for my own feelings is taken into account.
    Does anyone relate who has a family that clearly does not match your own type? Is this a type thing????
    Yeah, in my entire literal extended family (that's including two parents, one sister, four grandparents, eight aunts and uncles, and ten cousins), I had just one other N in that makeup -- an xNFP. We never lived close to each other but we'd always latch onto each other without trying at family events, we just loved each other to death and still try to visit once a year. She's just awesome.

    So yes, I understand what it feels like to not be understood in general, even by people who are kind. I always felt kind of off in a different place, although I could exist on their turf.

    I should also say though, that despite those differences and not connecting well, that doesn't mean we weren't all kind to each other and respectful. When I came out later in life, out of all my relatives, although my grandparents were all dead by that point, only my dad was a jerk about it, and one aunt/uncle who were perhaps tacitly rude without meaning to be. All my cousins have been cool, and the others have been cordial.

    I understand what you are talking about in terms of hostility though. (My dad was really good at ramping that crap up, he always had to shoot off his mouth in sometimes not the nicest way possible). Otherwise my family was much more introverted in their approach, and restrained. People wouldn't openly fight, they'd rather keep the peace and not embarrass others for disagreeing.

    My in-laws were also that way, to them a veneer of civility was super important -- but in that situation I found it downright repressive. (There were numerous interactions with them on the individual level that let me know how bigoted/judgmental they were for anyone who didnt' align with their political and religious values.) THAT kind of "peace" to me is a form of smothered violence since you couldn't be yourself without suffering reprisal, and the civility was always just a veneer. They had no other N's in the family either, aside from one grandchild (who would be the age of my kid) and boy was he misunderstood a lot as an ExNx type; he was always getting himself in trouble with his ISTJ dad.

    Anyway, It can be hard to deal with an ESTJ parent. The thing is, ESTJ's can actually be more accessible than they come across. I've had to deal with it in the workplace and known ESTJs who would leave other meeting participants in tears -- but none of it was personal, it was a partially a misreading of the ESTJs intentions. They just can be very direct, blunt, and cut to the bone. A lot of it is using that intuition to perceive how they read you, an introvert, and your motivations. INxx in particular can be misread by ESTJ, so part of it is understanding where the misreading might occur, then engaging in blunt discussion about it and showing why they're wrong by your attitude / approach and the results of your choices.

    Being an N in an S family means a lot of the time to use that iNtution not to see where the S's are "wrong" or perhaps misguided (in the N's opinion) but to perceive how we, the N's, are being perceived and whether their perception of our intent actually is our intent, and whether there are better ways to get our intentions across. Yeah, it sucks we might have to carry a bigger load, but I've actually had a lot of success and better relationships with S family members when trying to approach it this way. Because in the end we still have to deal with it all. We're outnumbered. So it's up to us to use what we have to get ourselves across better. People are people, regardless of type. Good people will try to build bridges; bad people crush others instead.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Several posts were removed because of personal attacks and insults. It is possible to express a perspective different from someone else's, or even direct disagreement, without resorting to any of this. Further posts of this nature will result in threadbans, or thread closure.

    Carry on.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #8
    Astronomer of the Abyss Tenebris's Avatar
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    Just ignore them, and don't let people ruin your day. I am usually the odd one out in many situations with my beliefs, but I also don't usually criticize others for having the wrong ones either. Harmony is more important than political beliefs IMO. I do think it's wrong to start arguments in a family setting even if you are right. A lot of people have offensive beliefs. You cannot really accomplish much in telling them off, as people's minds are very difficult to change unless they are open to it (And if they were open, it wouldn't take much to change it). So really, it is just perpetuating disharmony if it keeps happening. This is why many families stop being family too. So do it for the sake of your family and keep the harmony, and overlook their beliefs.

    I personally come from a very mixed family of types. I am probably the only Intuitive in the whole thing. Maybe one NF (My little brother). I have learned through experience both online and offline, the importance of not going all E1 on everyone because of what I believe (little more extreme than what you were doing). It not only impacts people around you negatively, it impacts your own mental well being. Learning to let people's flaws go is very important for being happy.
    一期一会

    Only from the deepest darkness, can you see the stars.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by cacaia View Post
    Hi, everyone. So, I have deeply struggled philosophically with my family ( mother's side, mainly) since I was pretty young.
    We always had a loving relationship growing up, but once I further developed my views of the world, that's when everything came crashing down.
    My family is full of STs and some SFs, with only one ENFP aunt ( we get along just fine, but that's about it).
    They are very conservative , but not religious.
    I was always dubbed the "strange cousin" or " that sweet but very different child with very modern ideals" by them.

    It doesn't help that my Estj mom, who tries to keep everyone together, berates me for speaking my mind, which is apparently always wrong, because I may have hurt an uncle or aunt's feelings. No thought for my own feelings is taken into account.
    Does anyone relate who has a family that clearly does not match your own type? Is this a type thing????
    Yes, and on the bolded: I truly think not. I have met Sensors who share very similar views/worldviews that I do, and Intuitives that do not. My extended families are mostly sensors, but my main family is a whole bag of intuitives (parents, siblings). My parents and I did not see eye to eye. The way I'd describe it is that birds of a feather do not flock together, we may be fellow intuitives but we went down very different roads, roads we each had our own convictions in. Unfortunately for my parents, I've always been rebellious. Maintaining silence for harmony feels like submitting to a dictatorship. For the most part, I present my rational arguments, cite sources- when they begin to take it personally and break, we just usually don't talk about it again (because I will slay them no matter how they try. A solid rationale cannot be argued against without making yourself look stupid).

    I may not change their mind, but at least they know they cannot change mine and shouldn't waste their breath trying. Doesn't stop some of them from being idiotic enough to keep flinging themselves against the metaphorical wall, anyway. To clarify, I do not ceaselessly clobber them with my views, but if they try do exactly that, they will be met with resistance. For some more distant cousins, we have settled for 'agree to disagree' and not push it, but not before expressing each our views and making it clear that they will be held and maintained by each individual, and respecting those boundaries, knowing that we do not necessarily think lesser of each other as long as no one is harmed in the process (and no, being 'hurt' or 'offended' by a view does not count).

    I found most of what was said, discussed, or argued during dinner conversations was offensive to my ears. I mostly listened. But when I would make a counter argument, they would tell me I was too sensitive, or to just grow up, or they would roll their eyes and change the subject.
    I always also feel like I am the bad guy if I mention something that someone said was mysoginistic or racist. I think I'm taking the high ground for calling them out on it ( very gently, of course) to persuade their views, but then the family member who was previously so hateful and aggressive in their previous speech would then look at me like they were the victim. Up to this day ( and I am almost 40!) I am made to feel ashamed of what I say to them. Even if I was totally and most absolutely correct in my decision to call them out on things.
    On another note, this is almost hilarious. They are describing themselves. They are too sensitive to accept criticism and change, and are too much of a 'bad guy' to appreciate and accept the existence of another human being simply because of trivial things such as their sex and skin colour. They should be ashamed of themselves, and you should divorce yourself of their standards and the shame that comes with it.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris View Post
    Harmony is more important than political beliefs IMO. I do think it's wrong to start arguments in a family setting even if you are right. A lot of people have offensive beliefs. You cannot really accomplish much in telling them off, as people's minds are very difficult to change unless they are open to it (And if they were open, it wouldn't take much to change it). So really, it is just perpetuating disharmony if it keeps happening. This is why many families stop being family too. So do it for the sake of your family and keep the harmony, and overlook their beliefs.
    I would like to add that at least to me personally, truth is more important than harmony. A pacified silence is a life of lies. Harmony only does become valuable when the absence of it is more disadvantageous than maintaining it. I would also like to note that arguments are discussions taken personal. It is completely possible to voice a disagreement (and to accept it) without throwing a hissy fit over the dining table and slamming the door. However, I understand that some people value harmony more than that, and can get passionate in their convictions. If family stops being family, they were never true family to begin with, good riddance.

    To clarify, this is not a backhanded or passive aggressive slight. I just saw a chance to append my own view into a post in accordance to this thread's topic. In fact, this in itself is an example of a civil disagreement. Carry on, folks.


    Edit: Oh wow. I just noticed the thread post removal.
    My post was entirely in coincidence, though funnily and opportunely applies.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.

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