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Is Secular Leftism A Religion?

Lark

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I must say I'm a little irritated you compared secular leftism with Christianity, something most of these people have fought very hard to throw out of everything. Though at the same time it is quite ironic. They're fighting what they are in a sense there.

Nevertheless, I think people can often treat something like this almost religiously, for instance I had a friend who searched all their answers from google but was not religious so I suggested that he replaced God with google, therefore his god is the internet. I've had others I told treat science as if it is a god, religion because they believe in it although there is flaws in it as well. I think it can be possible, but ultimately it is not a religion nor should it be defined as one.

Most people have fought hard to throw Christianity out of everything?

How so?

I'm pretty sure that the golden rule isnt the worst thing that have been bequeathed by history, things might be different in the US, the way the tele-evangelism combines with the poor education system or something, but religosity, when its not sectarian hatred, is unlikely to be in the top five pressing problems facing the world.
 

Lark

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Because the only thing that matters is trashing people?

Yes. Why ever would anyone be interested in things people have in common, who think they hate each other and don’t realize they have things in common. Of what use could that ever be. :fpalm:

I think you could have quoted me by accident, or so it seems, perhaps the post you have in mind for appending that comment to is still there. :)
 

anticlimatic

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Drawing a highly questionable comparison between gender identify and the soul/spirit isn't enough to prove that social justice is a "religion". In order for it to do so, gender identity would have to be the most pivotal issue, when it's in fact one of many others.

I'm just trying to draw comparisons, not definitive proofs. Though I don't think that is the pivotal issue at all. I think the ultimate purpose of religion is choosing to trust a particular group to inform you how to live for the sake of not getting screwed by unintuitive threats. Nobody has time or energy or even the mental capacity to sort out every decision and its possible future consequences in real time detail, so we choose programs that seem reliable or were recommended by people we trust to run those tedious calculations for us.

I'm on the fence over the debate of nature vs. nurture when it comes to gender identity, and I suspect both have some role to play. Where I take issue with gender norms is in the prescriptive way in which they are applied, which leads to oppressive hierarchical structures. So, maybe men might be a bit more predisposed towards pursuing STEM careers than women, but that doesn't mean women who pursue STEM are any less capable, and it certainly doesn't justify social norms which discourage women from STEM (i.e. "girls can't do math").

This was maybe a legitimate problem 20 years ago for a minority of women, but has turned into a different problem in modern times in the expectation that- given the freedom to choose- women would take an equal interest in STEM as men, which is an absurd secular leftist piece of doctrine that is taken on faith without any factual backing.

The comparison between climate change and Armageddon has weight, but let's say someone has definite evidence which proves the world will end this year. There wouldn't be cause for ridicule if we should worry about the world ending tomorrow. Armageddon is only a cause for mockery because its fears are unfounded, while climate change is a scientific fact.

Are you a climate scientist, or are you choosing to have faith in them? Of course the climate is changing, eventually this planet will just be a scorched rock as the sun expands. But there are no such things as future predictions that are facts (not a reference to the fact that climate is changing as you stated). No matter how likely. I don't know what's going to happen to the planet between now and scorched-rock time, but I'm not going to work myself into daily fits over it.

As for the issue of Louis CK, I must stress that context needs to be accounted for, and in jumping to the conclusion that it was okay because he "consensually" masturbated, it does not put you on a pedestal over mob justice groups jumping to conclusions through the same process. It's not all black and white. The individuals he masturbated in front of might've agreed either out of disbelief or fear of the consequences of denying him.

Maybe I'm a callous product of my generation, but I could not care less if I tried. I mean I think it's a weird fetish, and I don't particularly care for Louis CK, but having a famous guy ask and then jerk off in front of you seems absurdly banal in a historical context. If you can't mentally handle something like that, you are probably not cut out for this world- and if worrying about stuff like this is your focus in life, what the hell are you thinking? There are so many better ways to spend time and energy and interest (this is rhetorical and not leveled in your direction).

You speak of social justice as though it were a monolith, when it's a collection of individuals with similar worldviews who often disagree on finer points. If asked about fiscal policy, a neoliberal, a social democrat, an anarchist, and a tankie probably aren't going to see eye to eye even if they might generally agree on gender issues. Inversely, two social democrats might agree on fiscal policy, but disagree on how to address undocumented immigration.

I haven't spoken of social justice at all aside from comparing it to evangelism, which it mirrors spectacularly. In christianity alone there are many different small subsets (baptists, presbyterians, etc) each of which focuses on something slightly different, but has most things in common. And the big thing that all of them have in common, including the secular leftists, is that they want (need) you to think like they do.
 

Shadow Play

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I'm just trying to draw comparisons, not definitive proofs. Though I don't think that is the pivotal issue at all. I think the ultimate purpose of religion is choosing to trust a particular group to inform you how to live for the sake of not getting screwed by unintuitive threats. Nobody has time or energy or even the mental capacity to sort out every decision and its possible future consequences in real time detail, so we choose programs that seem reliable or were recommended by people we trust to run those tedious calculations for us.

Even though religion serves as a tool for control, it wouldn't have come about were people not afraid of death and the unknown. The core issue of every religion is concerned with the fate of one's soul. Everything else follows from that premise, and the rules which religions set for their followers are intended to both guide and control their actions in preparation for the next life. If social justice were the equivalent of a religion, it would need to promise either an improvement of one's lot beyond their existence on this mortal coil or a transcendence of one's soul, with the means to attain that end being to do what's considered right. Now, you might argue that social justice advocates (those spooky "SJWs"), through saying you're not a good person so long as you hold such and such a viewpoint, attempt to guilt trip people into doing what they want you to do. On a surface level, this seems comparable with the teachings of organised religions. The difference is that religion treats this life as a test of one's character, with the reward attained at the end of one's life after one has purified their soul. Social justice advocates have never promised a life after the one we live now.

This was maybe a legitimate problem 20 years ago for a minority of women, but has turned into a different problem in modern times in the expectation that- given the freedom to choose- women would take an equal interest in STEM as men, which is an absurd secular leftist piece of doctrine that is taken on faith without any factual backing.

It's possible men and women won't have a completely equal interest in STEM no matter what we do, but what if the gender skew is more lopsided than it would've been otherwise? Women played a pivotal role in the early development of computer science, and it was only after it became profitable to pursue computer science as a career that the gender skew tipped towards men. You claim this is an accusation made without any factual backing, but due to both accountable and unaccountable variables affecting data, there is no factual basis for determining whether the baseline would've been 1:1 or 7:3, thus we don't know for certain the exact extent to which gender disparities are attributable to nature or nurture. Anyway, I cited the gender skew in STEM as but one example of how societal norms affect gender roles. Despite any possible misgivings over the finer points, I can at least respect that gender studies researchers are taking the time to ask what those variables are, thus providing an opportunity to discuss things in the marketplace of ideas, while if others had things their way, those questions would probably never have been asked.

Are you a climate scientist, or are you choosing to have faith in them? Of course the climate is changing, eventually this planet will just be a scorched rock as the sun expands. But there are no such things as future predictions that are facts (not a reference to the fact that climate is changing as you stated). No matter how likely. I don't know what's going to happen to the planet between now and scorched-rock time, but I'm not going to work myself into daily fits over it.

That's a false dilemma. I don't see how not being a climate scientist means I must choose to have faith in them. To say I'd have faith would be to imply a complete, unwavering trust in what scientists say. It's more about being informed through the reading I've done into the issue, and forming conclusions from there. It so happens that the world is warming in average temperature at a faster rate, and the rate in which it's increasing is directly proportional to the extent of our industrialisation. Whereas religious people would believe in the existence of a god or gods no matter what evidence points to the contrary, I would be willing to change my mind about climate change if indisputable research proved it was a hoax. Besides, oil companies and corporations contributing to pollution have more to gain from denying climate change than acknowledging it, while scientists who publish the research really don't have much profit to gain from publishing it. I suspect most climate change denialists of being funded by the wealthy, so as to continue to profit from exploitation of non-renewable resources.

Maybe I'm a callous product of my generation, but I could not care less if I tried. I mean I think it's a weird fetish, and I don't particularly care for Louis CK, but having a famous guy ask and then jerk off in front of you seems absurdly banal in a historical context. If you can't mentally handle something like that, you are probably not cut out for this world- and if worrying about stuff like this is your focus in life, what the hell are you thinking? There are so many better ways to spend time and energy and interest (this is rhetorical and not leveled in your direction).

I refrain from value judgements both in the case of Louis CK and in the case of yourself. I couldn't care whether or not you're a callous product of whatever generation you happen to belong to, because that has little bearing as to who's right. I mean, I find what Louis did disgusting, but I could also rationalise it as a weird fetish I know nothing about, and maybe what happened was primarily the result of a misunderstanding. I don't pretend to know the full story, so I can only speculate on the possible factors involved.

I haven't spoken of social justice at all aside from comparing it to evangelism, which it mirrors spectacularly. In christianity alone there are many different small subsets (baptists, presbyterians, etc) each of which focuses on something slightly different, but has most things in common. And the big thing that all of them have in common, including the secular leftists, is that they want (need) you to think like they do.

You may not have used that term directly, but I've made it a point to distinguish social justice from what you describe as "leftism". Your use of the term is a vague blanket term which you'd apply both to socialism and progressiveness. No one would ever call the Soviet Union champions of social justice. These things overlap, yes, but they are still two separate things, and so I've chosen to focus on the aspect of progressiveness because fiscal policies have thus far not been the issue of our discussion.

Any pundit who pushes their views wants you to think like they do. In that respect, social justice advocates are no different from conservatives, libertarians, or fascists who use the same platforms to make themselves heard. This begs the question as to why you feel the need to single them out in particular.
 
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The question posed in this thread is answered by this religious anthropologist (that is an anthropologist who studies religions, not an anthropologist who is also religious).

Most of the postings in this thread were predictable.


Religio - to bind, to bring together. Made up of two words: Re and Lig

People already know what the prefix Re is used for: To do something again, REpeat, REsend, REtie, etc.

The second half of the word: Lig is the same word which the medical term for LIGament comes from. Ligaments bind bones together.

So, Religio means to Rebind. Religion is that which binds people together.... *archaically speaking. This is the definition Mole uses when describing MBTI as a religion unto itself.

TypeC would prefer religion to have God involved in order for it to qualify as a religion due to the ideological animosity towards Christianity by the majority of the userbase viewing the word "Religion" as connotating with Christianity which they oppose.

I understand the OP's point. To add, it could be said that denying oneself to be religious is also a religious trait of Secular Leftism.

I practice the religion of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
 

Coriolis

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I'm just trying to draw comparisons, not definitive proofs. Though I don't think that is the pivotal issue at all. I think the ultimate purpose of religion is choosing to trust a particular group to inform you how to live for the sake of not getting screwed by unintuitive threats. Nobody has time or energy or even the mental capacity to sort out every decision and its possible future consequences in real time detail, so we choose programs that seem reliable or were recommended by people we trust to run those tedious calculations for us.
Well, then, we just have different views of religion. I do view it as including if not a belief in deity, at least a belief in the spiritual, meaning something beyond the physical. People turn to many things for the input and reassurance you describe above, with religion being only one possibility. Philosophy, ideology, culture, family, political party, professional/trade organization, gangs even, and many other institutions can also serve this function. Some may overlap with religion, others won't.

This was maybe a legitimate problem 20 years ago for a minority of women, but has turned into a different problem in modern times in the expectation that- given the freedom to choose- women would take an equal interest in STEM as men, which is an absurd secular leftist piece of doctrine that is taken on faith without any factual backing.
When our choices truly are unconstrained, I will accept that any resulting gender disparities reflect inherent desires and ability. There are significant racial disparities in many career fields as well, including STEM related ones. Do you think that is also based on inherent differences among, say, whites, blacks, Latinos, Asians, and native Americans?

It's possible men and women won't have a completely equal interest in STEM no matter what we do, but what if the gender skew is more lopsided than it would've been otherwise? Women played a pivotal role in the early development of computer science, and it was only after it became profitable to pursue computer science as a career that the gender skew tipped towards men. You claim this is an accusation made without any factual backing, but due to both accountable and unaccountable variables affecting data, there is no factual basis for determining whether the baseline would've between 1:1 or 7:3, thus we don't know for certain the exact extent to which gender disparities are attributable to nature or nurture. Anyway, I cited the gender skew in STEM as but one example of how societal norms affect gender roles. Despite any possible misgivings over the finer points, I can at least respect that gender studies researchers are taking the time to ask what those variables are, thus providing an opportunity to discuss things in the marketplace of ideas, while if others had things their way, those questions would probably never have been asked.
An excellent example, and one for which we do have sound data. I am a firm proponent of equal opportunity. When I see a significant disparity in any field, whether based on gender, race, or other factor, my response is not to force it to become equal, but rather to determine what is its cause. If the cause comes from external constraints or impediments, that should be eliminated so people are truly free to follow their natural individual inclinations.

That's a false dilemma. I don't see how not being a climate scientist means I must choose to have faith in them. To say I'd have faith would be to imply a complete, unwavering trust in what scientists say. It's more about being informed through the casual reading I've done into the issue, and forming conclusions from there. It so happens that the world is warming in average temperature at a faster rate, and the rate in which it's increasing is directly proportional to the extent of our industrialisation. Whereas religious people would believe in the existence of a god or gods no matter what evidence pointed to the contrary, I would be willing to change my mind about climate change were indisputable research to prove it was a hoax. Besides, oil companies and corporations contributing to pollution have more to gain from climate change denial than acknowledging it, while scientists who publish the research really don't have much profit to gain from publishing about climate change. I suspect most climate change denialists of being funded by the wealthy, in order to continue to profit from exploitation of non-renewable resources.
Yes, this is the critical distinction between science and religion. One requires evidence, the other doesn't. In fact, I often see belief defined as accepting something in the absence of evidence. Much as I hope people do accept that human behavior is influencing the climate in potentially harmful ways, I would prefer they do so based on the evidence and not simply blind belief. Unfortunately many people seem either unable or unwilling to evaluate the data presented. To cut them some slack, scientists don't always do the best job of presenting their findings in a way that is digestible to those without an extensive scientific background. If our educational system did a better job of teaching critical thinking skills, that would help, too.
 

LucieCat

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I always understood "secular" as meaning "apart from religion." So it's hard to see the ideology of "secular leftism" as a religion. I could be wrong though. I'm not exactly sure where I get my definition of secular.
 

Tellenbach

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Tremendous overlap in irrational behavior but not quite the same. It's sorta like the difference between a donkey and a mule; sure they're different, but who cares. Both camps breed dangerous fanatics and that's what really matters.
 

Lark

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I always understood "secular" as meaning "apart from religion." So it's hard to see the ideology of "secular leftism" as a religion. I could be wrong though. I'm not exactly sure where I get my definition of secular.

I know that some of the very early socialists, like the followers of Saint Simon, this other guy, I think may have been called Wesley but I'm not sure (Engels wrote about him in an essay comparing socialism/communism with early Christianity I think), used to go on about their ideas/socialism being "Christianity as a secular religion".

So far as I know what they meant by that was Christianity without God, the afterlife or any trace of metaphysics, supernatural or miraculous aspects. Johnny Cash actually appears to reference it in the song The Wanderer when he says goes someplace "were the people like to sit, they want to Kingdom, but they dont want God in it".

Its not such a strange idea as biographies of the "historical Jesus" were popular about that time in France and America, so far as I know, Jefferson wrote a version of the bible which was meant to be the book without the "superstition" or "supernatural" aspect.

Although the whole thing about some sort of "secular leftism" is that does it imply there's a "non-secular" leftism too? Then what is that?

Like I posted before the whole thread strikes me as nothing really besides an excuse to trash religion and left wing politics? Why? Well, the OP probably doesnt like either for the same reasons.
 

Red Memories

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Most people have fought hard to throw Christianity out of everything?

How so?

I'm pretty sure that the golden rule isnt the worst thing that have been bequeathed by history, things might be different in the US, the way the tele-evangelism combines with the poor education system or something, but religosity, when its not sectarian hatred, is unlikely to be in the top five pressing problems facing the world.

I'm not saying every nation does it, I'm saying particularly in America, the secularist fought to have prayer yanked from schools, to the point where you can't even really wear religious imagery in a public school, and they teach religion from a standpoint of nitpicking. they claim God is sexist, homophobic, etc. In Canada they were pushing to not allow certain parts of the Bible to be read because of this take. So I find it almost humoring actually to see someone show how they are following somewhat something they despise, is more my directive with my comment. XD
 

ceecee

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I'm not saying every nation does it, I'm saying particularly in America, the secularist fought to have prayer yanked from schools, to the point where you can't even really wear religious imagery in a public school, and they teach religion from a standpoint of nitpicking. they claim God is sexist, homophobic, etc. In Canada they were pushing to not allow certain parts of the Bible to be read because of this take. So I find it almost humoring actually to see someone show how they are following somewhat something they despise, is more my directive with my comment. XD

You may want to include the fact that we have a vigorous constitutional amendment in the US that addresses this and the reasons for resolute policy maintaining the separation of church and state. Many other countries don't. Religious freedom allows the individual to have choice. That doesn't include institutions that serve the public, also granted that same freedom. This is not nitpicking. No one is trampling your rights to religion, to attend houses of worship or reading a bible, no matter how much that is claimed.

And frankly, people that have issues with living in a secular nation, which this one has been since Day 1, have every right to go find a theocracy they would prefer to live in.
 

mirkers

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My thought exactly. Just if something is a political movement that doesn't mean it is religion.
 

Pioneer

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What is "secular leftism"? How is it defined?

Without proper definitions, you can't have a proper discussion.

I know what secularism is, and the term "leftism" is often used to describe political ideology but the OP seems to be using "secular leftism" to mean "PC culture" and I think this is kind of a narrow use of the terms "secular" and "leftism".

So I don't know what to make of this thread...
 

Pioneer

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Secular and religion are mutually exclusive.

I think that secularism as a philosphy can have some cult-like followers too in some cases.

So while I agree that secularism is not a religion, it can certainly lead to dogmatism and ideology in some cases, which are negative traits often ascribed to religion.
 
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